advance curve tuning

Knebel

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i have acuired the limiter plate and springs from 4secondsflat for the distributer and will be doing some curve tuning soon. Im curious (since this is all wonky in my dizzy), at what travel in the slots should the weights be caught by the heavy spring (or the loop) to slow down the curve?

should the pin in the weight travel half way or more through the advance plate before it hits the loop of the heavy spring?
 
What is this for excactly? Do you still run vacuum advance?
 
This kit you bought is capable of limiting the amount of mechanical advance in the distributor. What are you aiming to do here? These kits are used when a high degree of initial timing is required to off set the poor running characteristics of a "modified" engine. Is this what you have?
 
right. Even tho I didnt ask about that, thanks for clarification. I have 20° initial and maybe need 2 degrees more. i am aware what the kit is used for.

I am asking on how far the light spring lets the weight travel in the slot before the heavy one takes over because it appears that the heavy spring has no effect in my distributor at the moment.
 
No problem. I wasn't very clear.
 
If you do have the time It would be great to know what your setup is and why it is required. It sounds very interesting and I would like to know how all this works. Would you still run 36ish total advance?
 
well, my engine is called "pandoras box". I know that there is a hotter cam in it because thats what the previous owner told me. I also have an EFI system installed. I do want to run about 36 total and get 20 initial, maybe even a little more because thats where my engine seems to run best. The kit is just a cleaner solution and I feel like i could speed up the curve a little to make the engine more responsive. Also, my mileage absolutely sucks (improved from 7 to 7.6mpg with the efi) and im thinking that my advance curve is not quite right yet. I can also lock out the timing with the kit in case i want the efi controlling it.

FBO Systems
 
Thanks for that. Very interesting. Do you have an O2 sensor you can read from the efi to see what's going on? Sounds like a complicated setup with some unknowns thrown in!
 
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Well I wish you all the best with it. Let us know your results and your findings if you could. I would be most interested!
 
Knebel. I tried the limiter plate in the various positions earlier today. The heavy spring with the elongated end will not come in to use in any of the positions. The light spring is in use though. Are you trying to get less than 16* of mechanical advance?
 
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Knebel. I tried the limiter plate in the various positions earlier today. The heavy spring with the elongated end will not come in to use in any of the positions. The light spring is in use though. Are you trying to get less than 16* of mechanical advance?
Thank you! yes, i will probably end up with 12° or 14° mechanical advance.
 
As you probably have realized, at 7mpg you have a serious issue going on. (unless you have 4.88 gears and a super-heavy foot). From most reports, EFI adds 2-3 mpg or more, so to gain only .6 also suggests an underlying problem. Your reference to 'pandora' makes me think you already know this, so...

I may be wrong, I'm not an expert on cammed engines, but I think 20deg initial timing is HUGE, and will just be masking the problem. Also, I doubt any healthy 'correct' engine would be able to do a heat-soaked start with that much timing, it's going to buck against the starter motor.

Have you done a compression check, what are your numbers? It's a SB, so it's easy to do, easy to reach the plugs. My next curiousity would be your cam timing (a little tougher to nail down). Years ago I changed a timing chain, lined everything up per the book, and it ran poorly (very sluggish). Ultimately I had to advance the timing set *2 teeth* to get it to run like it did before. In between, though, I was bumping the initial timing up drastically to try to make it run right.

What's your history on this car? How long have you had it and how long have you had poor mileage? Ever gotten reasonable MPG out of it?
 
well, i had it for 3 years. it runs nice, idles pretty nice too. I would not say it runs sluggish, it just seems to wake up at 2000rpm at which I go about almost 55mph. the problem is that I have NO idea what the cam specs are.

I have 12"Hg in park and 8"Hg in Drive. when I cruise and close the throttle, It shows me about 20"Hg.

I could get about 11mpg out of it in the summer with a holly carb. Now, I only have 200miles on the efi and just started adjusting it a little leaner (was running quite rich in certain areas at lower rpm). I also drove with a little heavier foot but damn, i thought i would get at least 14mpg right off the bat.

dont have a compression tester but tested a while back with my thumb on the holes and compression is there, plugs all look nice too. it could be that maybe the engine still is a little worn on the valves, it looked very dirty when I had the intake off 1 1/2 years ago and there was quite some carbon on the valves, seafoamed it twice. My rockers were super worn and I have already fixed that with new ones, that made it run better. Judging by wear and how dirty it was, the motor probably has 100.000miles on it. It has a edelbrock performer intake, pertronix ignition with flamethrower coil, fitech efi with edelbrock fuel sump pump, electric fan, 90amp alternator, small holley mighty mite pump back at the tank, 160° thermostat. I have also done a lot of electrical work and rewired and put a seperate fusebox in for accessorie safety. plugs, wires and dizzy cap are in good shape, like new.

I agree that 20 initial is quite a lot but it dosent kick back and for "performance" engines not THAT uncommon. It starts just fine, cold and hot. i actually found a shop manual saying 22° initial for a 1978 (my motor) 360LA. The 7.6mpg is all city driving btw. when I do more backroads and hwy its about 10mpg. I read that 10 to 12 is pretty common for a 360LA. but have only seen 12mpg once in the 3 years.

However, that why I took out the distributor, to check for issues there. As for performance, pulling out of a driveway and stabbing the throttle to 3/4 or so makes the tires break loose.
 
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So you are only getting 8" in drive with 20° btdc? That is a really big stick. You have got to have a vacuum leak somewhere. Or a issue with O2 sensor/placement why is a FI dumping so much fuel. Maybe to guys at Pace performance can steer you better they are a sponsor and sell Fitech. I know they are not fans of Mopar dizzy, the ones they offer seem decent/made here/ cheaper than conversion to Mopar electronic even ordering a spare module for glove box it is still cheaper than conversion and that is the better dizzy they have a cheaper one still for a near stock kind of replacement. I am going to get one of these for my Charger rather than cut the wiring out of a old harness I have here.
 
yes 8" in drive. well, I was cruising at 13.5afr, just adjusted to get closer to 15afr in cruise, I have to check the mileage again when I fill up... the plugs look rellay nice but I did notice, the motor does not like to be too lean at idle.
 
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well, i had it for 3 years. it runs nice, idles pretty nice too. I would not say it runs sluggish, it just seems to wake up at 2000rpm at which I go about almost 55mph. the problem is that I have NO idea what the cam specs are.

I have 12"Hg in park and 8"Hg in Drive. when I cruise and close the throttle, It shows me about 20"Hg..
Do you know what rearend gears you have? 55@ 2000 suggests highway gears, although we don't know your tire size. And if a stock converter, if it's a bigger cam, it might explain the big drop at drive-idle-stall?

I could get about 11mpg out of it in the summer with a holly carb. Now, I only have 200miles on the efi and just started adjusting it a little leaner (was running quite rich in certain areas at lower rpm). I also drove with a little heavier foot but damn, i thought i would get at least 14mpg right off the bat.
Agreed, give the EFI some time to optimize.

dont have a compression tester but tested a while back with my thumb on the holes and compression is there, plugs all look nice too. it could be that maybe the engine still is a little worn on the valves, it looked very dirty when I had the intake off 1 1/2 years ago and there was quite some carbon on the valves, seafoamed it twice. My rockers were super worn and I have already fixed that with new ones, that made it run better. Judging by wear and how dirty it was, the motor probably has 100.000miles on it. It has a edelbrock performer intake, pertronix ignition with flamethrower coil, fitech efi with edelbrock fuel sump pump, electric fan, 90amp alternator, small holley mighty mite pump back at the tank, 160° thermostat. I have also done a lot of electrical work and rewired and put a seperate fusebox in for accessorie safety. plugs, wires and dizzy cap are in good shape, like new..
I would recommend a 180 or 190 T-stat, that will help the engine warm up a little sooner, and that's good for atomization and MPG. Also, if your heat passage in the heads and intake are blocked, I would recommend opening that up as well. This FiTech EFI is a throttle body, so it flows wet thru your intake (and heat helps atomization), but it's different from all other TBI units. Typically an injector sprays onto a throttle blade, and the turbulent flow on the blade helps to atomize. The FiTech does a circular squirting-thing, and I don't have an understanding if that's good for part-throttle atomization.

The reason I asked about compression: if the cam has a lot of overlap, and if cam timing is off, that will cause cranking compression to drop (and dynamic compression too). You cannot check this with your thumb, though, you need actual numbers to evaluate. A 100psii cylinder will blow your thumb off, but that's too low and a sign of a problem. A cheap gage should be $20 or less, and it's a great thing in your toolbox.

I agree that 20 initial is quite a lot but it dosent kick back and for "performance" engines not THAT uncommon. It starts just fine, cold and hot. i actually found a shop manual saying 22° initial for a 1978 (my motor) 360LA. The 7.6mpg is all city driving btw. when I do more backroads and hwy its about 10mpg. I read that 10 to 12 is pretty common for a 360LA. but have only seen 12mpg once in the 3 years..
If cam timing is retarded it won't kick back as much. Yes, I have also heard that 360s are gas hogs. I've never owned anything that required 20+, but I believe your statement about a shop manual.

Without knowing what cam is in there, and not knowing other specs on your engine, I wouldn't say a 78 360 with a cam is a performance engine. Meaning, just having a cam in there doesn't automatically put it into 20deg timing area.

but I did notice, the motor does not like to be too lean at idle.
From what I have read, not uncommon for a performance engine (there, now I'm the one who said it!) to want an idle richer than stoich.

Ultimately, my advice is to figure out where you're at, with compression and cam timing, rather than trying to make adjustments (although I understand that's an easier thing to try).
 
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