Cat’s Out Of The Bag, ‘65 300L Manual Trans, A/C and More

[haywire 440]

Interested in your choice.

My choice is the current cam in the rebuild short block, as of right now. The machine shop just call Old Parts Source and told them a cam is needed for a ‘65 300L 413 and this was their answer, the Melling SPD11.
I didn’t get the cam specs until it was already installed. Here are those #s

 

[haywire 440]

Wow I am getting a lesson on camshafts and what the numbers mean. That’s all good because I like to understand this science.

With the advertised duration being 284 & 293 I was concerned that was too aggressive. The more accurate measurement is from 0.50 so those are 206 & 209. So this Melling camshaft is staying put.

Thanks for your comments.

 

[fury fan]

I did read some discussion on using oversized 383 pistons in the 413. I thought someone was getting creative.

I read something on Moparts 10+ years back about a 413 stroker a guy made (or planned).
IIRC it takes boring a .060"+ to put standard 383 pistons in and then a 4.15"-stroke crankshaft. Uses standard rods, I believe.
The premise was to use as many off-shelf parts as possible other than the crankshaft (and the 4.15" is pretty common).
Turns a 413 into a 471. Requires sonic testing the 413's walls, I suspect.

Within about 2 min I found it, 'Dogdays' is the name I remember, I think he'd written about it several times.
413 stroker build question ?

Now if someone would re-release a 3.9" crank all those late 70s 440s with the pistons .150" down would get new life. Don't know what the balancing would look like, though.

 

[Ross Wooldridge]

Wow I am getting a lesson on camshafts and what the numbers mean. That’s all good because I like to understand this science.

With the advertised duration being 284 & 293 I was concerned that was too aggressive. The more accurate measurement is from 0.50 so those are 206 & 209. So this Melling camshaft is staying put.

Thanks for your comments.

I am very interested, and I most definitely want a seat of the pants report once the car is running... I too was/am looking at Melling's factory cam packages, in the interests of restoring factory performance characteristics... I have a great deal of faith in the original profile giving me the tire roasting stop light stab'n'go low end grunt I remember from my youth, that all these modern so called "better" cams just never seem to deliver.

I don't need another 1000 rpm in my top end - I'm just never going to use it. I very much DO want to roast tires at will by stepping on the gas...

 

[Big_John]

.060 over and you can use a std. bore 426 wedge piston.

With that, you can use the stock rods and crank.

 

[haywire 440]

I read something on Moparts 10+ years back about a 413 stroker a guy made (or planned).
IIRC it takes boring a .060"+ to put standard 383 pistons in and then a 4.15"-stroke crankshaft. Uses standard rods, I believe.
The premise was to use as many off-shelf parts as possible other than the crankshaft (and the 4.15" is pretty common).
Turns a 413 into a 471. Requires sonic testing the 413's walls, I suspect.

Within about 2 min I found it, 'Dogdays' is the name I remember, I think he'd written about it several times.
413 stroker build question ?

Now if someone would re-release a 3.9" crank all those late 70s 440s with the pistons .150" down would get new life. Don't know what the balancing would look like, though.

I found that same conversation while researching rebuilding this engine. When I thought 413 pistons were unavailable that story was interesting. I’m still not sure if JE Pistons has the oversized 413s or not. Doesn’t matter because the RS ones are installed.

 

[haywire 440]

I am very interested, and I most definitely want a seat of the pants report once the car is running... I too was/am looking at Melling's factory cam packages, in the interests of restoring factory performance characteristics... I have a great deal of faith in the original profile giving me the tire roasting stop light stab'n'go low end grunt I remember from my youth, that all these modern so called "better" cams just never seem to deliver.

I don't need another 1000 rpm in my top end - I'm just never going to use it. I very much DO want to roast tires at will by stepping on the gas...

These are the characteristics I’m shooting to achieve. Maybe not for doing stoplight burnouts but get this heavy load Chrysler moving like a strong breeze.
I too remember that stab-n-go full throttle responses of my “beater” ‘68 automatic Roadrunner. I like to say it was a Wednesday built car. I installed a 292 duration high lift cam in rebuild of that 383 and totally ruin the low end throttle response.
The Camcraft’s cam I looked into was recommended by the 300 club as a close stock replacement for the L.
I will absolutely give my opinion on performance when that time comes.
My build update can continue now too because the really nice looking stock original radiator was dropped at a shop for inspection, boil and paint, for $65. Well turns out there were unseen issues and like a cartoon character my jaw dropped to the ground when I was told the repair price. The fellow was almost apologetic and looked at a few options but costs have evidently rocketed up.
So that’s about it, full speed ahead and damn the torpedoes!

 

[haywire 440]

.060 over and you can use a std. bore 426 wedge piston.

With that, you can use the stock rods and crank.

Wish those pistons were available.

I did have a chance to buy a set from a local friend. It was the early days of the new internet and I had a Mopar club website that members could advertise on. He was grateful for the help selling the 426 pistons.

 

[michiganhotrod1]

Nice car. DONT polish the swirl applique on the IP where the radio, clok etc, is. The finish is extremely fragile.
Mark

 

[haywire 440]

Nice car. DONT polish the swirl applique on the IP where the radio, clok etc, is. The finish is extremely fragile.
Mark

Thanks for the heads-up. That swirl does make the dash snazzy!

 

[haywire 440]

For those interested, over on b-bodies only, I’ve had a bunch of replies, opinions and good history of camshaft science and design discussions.

Which Camshaft For This Brute?

 

[Ripinator]

I am very interested, and I most definitely want a seat of the pants report once the car is running... I too was/am looking at Melling's factory cam packages, in the interests of restoring factory performance characteristics... I have a great deal of faith in the original profile giving me the tire roasting stop light stab'n'go low end grunt I remember from my youth, that all these modern so called "better" cams just never seem to deliver.

I don't need another 1000 rpm in my top end - I'm just never going to use it. I very much DO want to roast tires at will by stepping on the gas...

Squirrel!

 

[Ross Wooldridge]

Lol!!

 

[haywire 440]

So I have been going round and round about the camshaft like an obsession. It’s been and is frankly because I like to understand all I can. Maybe too anal but it is what it is.

The heads is something else I’ve been looking at. The exhaust hardened seats were installed. While watching an Uncle Tony’s Mopar video he was using a straight edge to see how the top of the valves (8) lined up. He said to match longer/shorter push rods with the longer/shorter valves. When I did that to my 2 heads what I found was the (4) intake valves sat .017-.20 above the exhaust valves on one head. The other head was the same as far as the intakes being taller but its difference was .025-.037. Do you think the hydraulic lifters will adjust correctly to the unequal valve stems?
Putting shims under the valves won’t correct it.

Here is the over bored 413 back in my garage.

This thread is moving along like molasses. I hope I don’t get distracted by furry little rodents.

Oh, the radiator recore job is complete. Another “to do” is off the list, yea!

 

[Ross Wooldridge]

I read the entire 3 pages of the B bodies cam thread - LOTS of people supporting the choice of Melling.

Keep us posted.

 

[fury fan]

How far down is that #1 piston from the deck surface?
Picture might be deceiving, but looks closer than I expected.

 

[haywire 440]

How far down is that #1 piston from the deck surface?
Picture might be deceiving, but looks closer than I expected.

I measured it at .050 with a feeler gauge.

So a few posts back I mentioned that the pistons that were removed from the 413 had a compression height of 2.022 and the new ones were advertised as 2.015 but that that measurement was not checked before installation. I think you said the stock pistons were supposed to be 2.085.

The heads were painted with the Bill Hirsch Turquoise paint.

 

[fury fan]

I think the 2.085 was my guess based on factory 440 pistons and then extrapolating that to the 413 due to same stroke/deck height.
But I now realize that is an error, as I was assuming a common 10:1 CR between both engines, and I overlooked that bore size can't be ignored as part of that CR assumption.
To change the bore size but keep the same CR the compression height of the piston must change.

Interesting on the .050" with those pistons. that would be perfect for quench with those -516 heads - if you didn't need to put a gasket in.
The Mr Gasket steel gasket is advertised as .020" compressed IIRC, which makes .070 between piston and head. Good for CR, but might cause it to be a little octane-sensitive?
Some folks have said you can run high CR with tight quench (.04-.05) but running the reduced CR and less quench that comes with pistons further in the hole can be a problem.

Do you know if they decked the block? (I apologize if you've already said so)
This makes me wonder if those pistons might make it possible to build a decent-CR 413 with quench. (That would be somewhat a miracle these days, and would require very particular parts)

 

[haywire 440]

I think the 2.085 was my guess based on factory 440 pistons and then extrapolating that to the 413 due to same stroke/deck height.
But I now realize that is an error, as I was assuming a common 10:1 CR between both engines, and I overlooked that bore size can't be ignored as part of that CR assumption.
To change the bore size but keep the same CR the compression height of the piston must change.

Interesting on the .050" with those pistons. that would be perfect for quench with those -516 heads - if you didn't need to put a gasket in.
The Mr Gasket steel gasket is advertised as .020" compressed IIRC, which makes .070 between piston and head. Good for CR, but might cause it to be a little octane-sensitive?
Some folks have said you can run high CR with tight quench (.04-.05) but running the reduced CR and less quench that comes with pistons further in the hole can be a problem.

Do you know if they decked the block? (I apologize if you've already said so)
This makes me wonder if those pistons might make it possible to build a decent-CR 413 with quench. (That would be somewhat a miracle these days, and would require very particular parts)

I was told that a minimum was removed from the block deck and the heads, only enough to make them straight.

The head gasket that came with the rebuild kit has a .040 head gasket, I did measure it. The Summit .030 thick head gaskets that are $37 each, so $74 a set. At this point I was thinking a little less compression is good for the poor gas out there but where I’m at now has many non-ethanol gas choices close by. That’s a wonderful situation.

On the “New Front” I discovered the full size starter removed earlier from the 413 has a date code of ‘65. It’s hard to believe that’s possible. I may look into have it rebuilt. Any suggestions by anyone?? I knew a place in Chicago that does it and I am looking at a trip there in the fall. Here’s a picture of the date code.

 

[Ross Wooldridge]

If the starter is working well, leave it alone. Just clean it up and detail it. My $0.02