Looking for the bright blue light (air fuel mixture)

HWYCRZR

Old Man with a Hat
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I have about two weeks of groceries on hand and no where to go but to my garage.
I am not looking for the spiritual bright blue light, but am looking instead for perfection in setting the air fuel ratio. Perfection for a 50 year old points ignition, 2bbl carburetor may be a stretch, but dammit I am going to try.
Back to the blue light.
As some of you may have seen in another thread Has anyone used an O2 sensor and Volt Meter to measure AFR (Air Fuel Ratio) to tune carb? I was asking about AFR setups and sensors. @78Brougham posted a link for a gadget that I had to try. Gunson Colortune. It is basically a spark plug with a window that you can use to watch your combustion.
I am going to try it out today and hopefully remember to take pictures and notes as I go along.
I realize there are a million different opinions and ways on how to do this, BUT THIS IS MY THERAPY.(attempt at humor no offense intended) I have to experiment. You are more than welcome to follow along.
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This CAN be a very good use of time! Your results will be awaited, eagerly.

While you're there . . . you might check out the various ways to set idle mixtures? With a vacuum gauge, highest rpm for a given idle speed screw setting, using the "best lean idle" method, and such. For general reference, what is the altitude of your location?

DO keep the exhaust output safely aimed to "out of the garage"!

Keep us posted,
CBODY67
 
First a couple of safety tips so I don’t see the bright blue light from carbon monoxide.
I will not be opening my garage door.
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but I do have an exhaust outlet
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screen door opening and exhaust fan if needed.
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I can bring the garage temp up 20 degrees pretty quickly. I also have a fan on my radiator.
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As I was hooking it up I realized I needed an adapter for my spark plug wire. The little tiny threads were not going to cut it. I knew I had a small engine somewhere that uses the little screw on nub. I found one on my 5th engine. It was on a little mantis tiller, so I borrowed it. Nice tight fit.
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The little mirror adapter is handy, but you need a nice straight shot. A little shorter would be helpful. But with my video camera on my phone I could get most of it.
Although in some cases I am not sure if it is a miss or a frames per second timing issue on my phone.
Run One. Cylinder #5. Right half of carburetor. Looks about right on.
 
Some set up information on the engine

At 907 ft of elevation. Temperature around 70 degrees f.
‘68 Polara, 383 2bbl. Fresh engine with around 2,000 miles.
91 octane non ethanol fuel.
Dwell @30 degrees, Timing set to 7-1/2 degrees before TDC, vacuum advance pinched. (No vacuum to advance at idle anyway). 600 rpm.
Vacuum measured at booster T about 15.5 inches at idle 600 rpm. 20” under normal throttle.
Distributor mechanical advance kicking in around 1000-1050 RPM. To spec through out the rest of curve. Vacuum advance per spec as well.
 
Next I went to Cylinder #4 which is fed by the runner tied to LH side of the carburetor. This one is running just a little rich based on the yellow tint in the cylinder. I was also getting a little miss. Not sure if is my extension wire or what. In some of the stop frames I see a spark but no ignition. Could this be because the Colortune test plug has the electrode shielded, and doesn’t always get goo fuel mixture to ignite? Or is my extension wire bad, or my plug wire. I need to check some resistance on my wires. It seems that after a miss the next spark would be rich.
 
Take 2 & 3. I did a little tweak on the air mixture screw, leaning it out about an 1/8 - 1/4 turn. Now I need to go back and check the other side.

 
I'll be damned... that is bad ***.:thumbsup:

I've heard of this tool for a long time on the other sports car forums I'm on, but never saw it in action. I'm thinking I've got to get one! With all the old school cars I've got its about time.

Thanks!:thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
I found my handy dandy Champion spark plug wire tester I bought over 32 years ago. Great for checking plug wires.

This was the cylinder that was missing with the blue flame. Much better with the plug and regular wire. Some frames per second mismatch.


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I am still going to stick the blue light in a couple more plug holes just to observe. I think I have a pretty good tune for now. Here are the two plugs I pulled. They look fine.

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Here’s a walk around video of timing, Rpm, scope.
I thought I had one going through a couple of different RPMs with the vacuum gauge and tach. But only got a seconds worth.
 
Vacuum is too low for a stock 383,IMHO.
Plus I use the vaccum port from the intake manifold not the booster for an accurate reading.
The needle should be steady not shaky. May have to set mixture screws to smooth it out.
7-1/2 degrees is ok but will run better at 10 degrees and that should put vacuum up to 18 inches at 750 RPM.
Hope this helps.
 
The mechanical advance is coming in too early for today's gas.
I recommend a recurve in the distributor where you can add advance plates to the distributor.
The idea is to gain more initial timing and full mechanical advance come in at a higher RPM to avoid detonation.
i agree your plugs look good and you do have room for improvements via fine fine tuning.
 
@cbarge, thanks for your input.
I agree with some things but not 100% with others.
I am running 91 octane non ethanol, so still has some good burn properties. (I think I was running 85 octane non ethanol in it back in the late 80’s)
At 10 degrees BTDC it starts idling a little rougher and doesn’t seem as happy.
The minute I crack the throttle plate the vacuum advance starts coming into play which puts it in the range you suggested above. This is a slow and low 2bbl 383 yet get great acceleration and kick down with no stumbling or detonation.
I reset the mechanical advance curve this winter. The primary advance was starting at 600 rpm. So I had to cheat the system a little last summer.

Now after the re-curve with the vacuum advance capped for the readings.
I do not get any mechanical creep until it starts to slowly move around around 1000 Rpm. At 1150 I am up to about 10 degrees total mechanical advance and a run up to 24 degrees BTDC @ 1500 rpm and 38-39 degrees at 4500 Rpm.
Vacuum advance right on spec. 0 degrees @ 5-8” & 5-8 degrees @10”
No vacuum advance at idle.
At this point I am not sure I want to mess with it any further. Has a nice smooth idle. Good throttle snap. Great even lines on the scope meaning the cylinders are happy.
Prior to this last round of tuning @ about 30 degrees F. I could romp on it and run it up to about 85-90 before final shift without detonation. I think I am pretty close.
I will shoot another video today through the different stages.
For a 50 year old carburetor with just a rebuild kit it does pretty good. My idle limiter screws are still sealed from the factory (new for ‘68) I never really had a need to adjust. Only using the fuel mixture screw for adjustment (only one). This 2bbl is very simple.
 
FWIW, from my '66 Chrysler FSM, the 383-2bbl mechanical advance starts about where he mentions his starts. 1000-1200rpm So his sounds about right. Only significant difference is that the '66 distributor is calibrated to allow 12.5 degrees BTDC initial timing and still have about 38 degrees total, from the factory.

When I was trying to use a vacuum gauge to check manifold vacuum levels, I NEVER could get to the levels the books mentioned, even allowing for our 1000ft of elevation. Using 15 degrees initial didn't really help, nor did setting the idle mixture for highest vacuum either. So I stopped worrying about those things, just making the engine work as well as it could AND be happy. At the time, we were running premium gas exclusively, as that's what it liked and didn't clatter.

When that car accumulated a burnt valve at about 80K, the vacuum gauge needle DID deflect with each firing of that cylinder, which made the needle a blur of sorts. It was MUCH easier to see at the tail pipe, using a shop towel to. Rather than a smooth flow, there would be a negative pressure pulse that would suck the towel into the pipe, momentarily.

EACH engine has its own personality, by observation. Our '66 still had the 252/252 cam, rather than the 256/260 cam the '68 2bbls adopted from the 383/325 4bbls.

It might appear that the carb base would be a better place to tap into intake manifold levels, rather than the intake manifold runner (where the power brake vacuum source usually is on Chrysler products. BUT other than the inherent damping of vacuum pulses which the smaller orifice on the carb base would allow, the levels should be the same at closed or part-throttle, I suspect. The power brake booster check valve is always there on power brake vehicles, but the additional vacuum tap on those check valves wasn't there on the earlier models, by observation.

When running these tests, I'd recommend having the vacuum advance operational, rathe rthan capped. This way, you'll see a more accurate reading that would better reflect what's really happening "on the road". With the miniscule vacuum in the ported vacuum port, relative to where the vacuum advance might start, capping it could be a discussion point of sorts.

As for re-curving a Chrysler aluminum-body distributor, per the FSM, you don't really change springs, you BEND the tab the spring hooks to, deep below the breaker plate. Using a broad-blade screwdriver to do it. In the old Performance Manuals, the heavy spring was even advocated to be removed to speed-up the advance curve.

Over the years, I've determined that the factory specs are a default mode of sorts for tuning each individual motor. A "starting point/baseline" of sorts from which to try a few more degrees of base initial timing, for example, to see how it works. From what my research on distributor timing indicated, at least with Chrysler 383/440s, the retarded base timing (for better idle emissions) was compensated for on the top end advance specs, although usually headed more toward 35 degrees rather than 38 degrees. At least until the earlier 1970s.

How your testing proceeds will be eagerly awaited.

Enjoy!
CBODY67
 
The FSM and the corrected technical data sheets are front and center.
And distributor is now perfectly in spec. Since I don’t hav a distributor machine I capped the vacuum advance to qualify my spring adjustments. My engine was essentially my distributor machine. I had to change the initial advance spring as it was stretched. No amount of tab bending changed much.
then after a couple of bending sessions I was able to get the factory curve with the primary and secondary spring adjustment. I don’t know if any amount of adjustment with the 2bbl Or distributor would get me to 20 at 600 rpm. Right now it running almost perfectly. It seems to be in its happy place.
For kicks I will tee off the carburetor base or manifold to see if vacuum changes or jitters go away. At cracked throttle it does go to 20 and is smooth.
 
Idle Mixture Adjustments . . . .
In the earlier days, the desire was to use the highest rpm/vacuum reading as "the place" to set it. That was good, back then, and felt to be optimum. Using the factory specs as the cars were still "used cars" at that point.

As the "emissions era" came to be upon us, I noticed several different orientations, from different OEMs. So I pondered how'd they compare. On the tune-up decal on our then-new '69 Chevy C-10 350-4bbl (regular fuel on the pickups), it mentioned adjusting the mixture for the highest rpm with each idle screw, then going leaner until you got a 20rpm drop on each screw, then turning it rich until that 20rpm came back. Which I believe was later termed "Lean Best Idle". In this method, the mixture was leaned a bit from optimum rpm/vacuum, but then leaned to "the edge" of the top of that mixture adjustment bell curve. Lean enough to still be smooth and responsive, but not too lean to cause a rougher idle, on the "lean side" of the bell curve. Just as there was a "too rich" situation on that side of the bell curve peak.

What I later developed was something I did on my own, as a quality control check. This works well on single exhaust vehicles and a little less so on dual exhaust vehicles. Doing it first on our Chevy pickup, which was the newest vehicle at the time. NO need for a tach, either, so it's "pure shade tree" in nature.

I noticed that (with a standard/OEM cammed motor), when setting hot base idle rpm, a rougher idle would usually result in feeling separate pulses at the end of the exhaust pipe in "D" (Parking brake fully applied!!). Which might vary a bit with a looser factory torque converter. On manual trans vehicles, not a good way to simulate these same things.

So, starting with the carb at Lean Best Idle, I'd put the vehicle in gear with the parking brake strongly applied. After easing off the foot brake, to check for creep, then I'd put my hand over the exhaust pipe end to check for smoothness of flow. Sometimes, it might need an additional 20rpm on the speed screw to make that happen. Then, when removing my hand from the flow, I'd smell it. A hydrocarbon smell would indicate it needs a leaner tweak, with the desire to minimize the hydrocarbon smell. Necessary to wash that hand afterward!

So, after getting the idle speed/mixture tweaked, with the a/c compressor running, Dad could sit in the field, talking to whomever was working/plowing that day, for hours with NO overheating problems. As the pickup just sat there in a smooth idle, in gear, foot on the brake, and the a/c blowing cold.

Only thing was that in '69, Chevy upped the line pressure on the THM400s, so they ALL had a more intense initial engagement when put in gear . . . which Dad didn't like. BUT with my settings, although it did well, when in "N" or "P", the resultant idle rpm would be 780rpm, which seemed a bit high to me for a stock motor, but otherwise worked very well. SO he'd find some mechanic to decrease the idle speed for a nice, smooth, car-like gear engagement. Which lowered the idle speed too low and it's get hotter in those field conversations (which might last an hour or so, sometimes, in the summer).

I did the same thing with the '66 Newport, which generally resulted in an "in gear" idle speed of about 550rpm and the "P" idle rpm a bit higher than the factory settings. So I tried to tweak the Stromberg WWC for a happy medium of sorts. But getting "the smell" minimized was possible. The exhaust temp was cool, too.

When we got the '72 Newport 400 2bbl, after it got some miles on it, I did my settings on it, too. ONE big difference was that the exhaust temperature (with the 8.2CR motor, vs. the 9.2 CR motor in the '66) was much hotter. The base timing was something like 7.5 degrees plus or minus 2.5 degrees, so I (and the dealer) usually put it at the maximum number. Due to, best I could determine, the higher heat transfer to the exhaust due to the lower compression ratio. Whereas the 9.2+ motors had a cooler "burn" than the lower compression ratios did. Such that the greater heat in the pipes might also help cook the emissions before they arrived in "ambient air". No AIR pumps on these particular motors, either. The increase of coolant temps form 180-185 (OEM 400 t/stat in '72) or the later 195 t/stats should have had no affect on ultimate exhaust temps, either. That's just the way it was, for whatever reason.

When I checked the spark plugs every so often, they always looked "light tan" which further indicated things were good. As did the light gray color of the end of the exhaust pipes, when the gas had some lead in it. So, all was well.

So all was well, from the shadetree method of looking at the color of the inside of the tail pipes, UNTIL unleaded gas arrived, with its "black" coating, no matter what, even on catalytic converter cars.

Now, initially, my tweaked setting usually would consume the better part of an hour. NOT something that a dealership tech might want to do, especially with their higher-tech instruments of that time. BUT something that a motivated individual could do with no problems, usually. PLUS keep them out of trouble for a while. Unless something broke!

Not unlike spending a while cleaning, filing for sharp edges on the electrodes, gapping, and reinstalling spark plugs. Had a really nice uniform pattern on the scope, as a reward. Those were the days! AND some of the rewards of knowing that you did a good job that made the car work better (even if just by a miniscule amount).

Enjoy!
CBODY67
 
I think my new adjustable timing light is out of whack.
Edit ( I was not properly converting the distributor advance to crankshaft advance. Distributor advance x 2 = engine advance on crank shaft)

I ran the engine up to 3500 and dialed in my light to get the mark on Zero it showed I was at 55 degrees btdc.
Edit ( 55 degrees minus 7.5 degrees initial timing = 47.5. 47.5 / 2 = 23.75 distributor advance. )
I was starting out at 7.5 degrees advance.
Add 15.5 degrees of mechanical advance x 2 = 31 degrees on crank plus a max of 13.5 vacuum x2 =27 degrees read on crank shaft. So should have a max advance of 31+27+7.5 = a max of 65.5 @ 4500 rpm. So 55 degrees at 3500 is probably about right.
 
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I agree each engine has to be treated indivdually and have to do what it takes to make it happy.
What I did to other 383's may not work in your case.
Thats the beauty of testing and tuning. Trial and error.
Most importantly though is driving between making adjustments
Cheers
 
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