Scenicruisin'..?

You and the Whisperer think a lot alike boss.

1. Engine has appearance/dating (I dont know how they knew but they did) of an original re-power mill. No evidence either way of a rebuild or if original .. but its vintage.

2. So yes, driveline mounting is the original repower configuration it appears

3. We are always going to separate driveline from body and do as you suggest .. my inclination as noted in earlier thread is a more modern piece. But, given 1 above, I am asking Whisperer to talk me down off the ledge (of rebuilding current mill that may be an original repower unit)

4. Yep .. gotta get it under my control, around my guys, at my rates. The PA guys are GREAT .. i wanna emphasize that .. but they don't know me and as busy as their shop is, shoot, they don't need my business. probably would slow them down working on a 60 year old bus. :)

5. This Spicer thing is buggin' me. I wanna stay original but I am completely outta my depth with practical, day-to-day operation of a vehicle like this. The consensus among the bus-o-philes is IF you can go "auto", do it.
  • Unless you've driven big rigs/big manual vehicles, i am told the shifting these old PD-4501's takes the "RV fun" out of it. Typical things .. steep hills, stop-n-go traffic, etc. .. you gotta do wear on you.
  • And then there's the inevitable day when it needs a new home .. does an auto make it easier to sell?
  • And when the time post-retirement comes, I'll be doing it in my mid-60s to whenever .. cant imagine it getting easier as I age.
I just don't want sloppy/incomplete planning to do me in. Could be something else that poops the party, but hopefully not a lazy mind upfront.

So yup that while these early decisions are not irrevocable, they are as you note very important for all sorts of reasons that "we" (people taking on these kinda jobs, be it cars or buses or airplanes or whatever) need to keep in mind.

Lest we find ourselves in an unpleasant place .. not just the whole "money pit" thing but a busted dream on top of that. Both together are pretty bad. :(

Anyway, I'll stay positive and stay on it.
#1= save that piece, big and heavy, but you have the space... it will never be worth more than it is with your bus.
#2=:thumbsup:
#3= Let the Whisperer be your guide... but you have some options, not being a V-Drive bus... you have some more modern and more powerful drivelines to choose from.
#4= Good call, too big a project to not want to work with your home team.
#5=An automatic would make her drive a lot easier, so would power steering... I get that it's a tough a delicate balance to figure out modern comforts vs. nostalgic pleasures. I'm of the opinion that with your age of use, the possibility of taking on a co-driver along the way and lack of bus/truck driver experience... the nostalgia of the manual, especially the original 4 gear, would wear out fast.

I don't have enough familiarity to be of any use, but there is a whole new generation of big truck automatics out there... If the Whisperer talks about any of them as being an option, pay close attention. Other than size and turning ratio, there's no reason she shouldn't be a joy to drive with a good repower.

As far as driving is concerned, I read a full timer's blog long ago... they established "rules" for themselves about avoiding driving under pressure to reach a destination. No night driving, no foul weather driving, planning ahead to avoid the worst of traffic, buat also taking their time to enjoy the journey... I'm not saying I have it in me to get all of that right, but I can see where those "rules" would help anyone enjoy a trip a lot more.

Unfortunately, especially as a novice (like me), it adds a lot of comfort to preplan your routes with a big girl like this. She is tall enough to be safer sticking to truck routes, rather than chancing she will have enough clearance to operate on secondary roads... but she will be a little more forgiving height wise than a 13'6" box.
 
And now the transport is at hand ... more to come on that odyssey this coming week, but here's the dimensions of the 28,000 lb job. She's 11ft tall too .. only a low-boy will do.

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update ... still working on the pickup. y'all with get a kick out of this story .. unless its pisses you off as much as it does me. :BangHead: :)

Diff. Topic. Whisper has weighed in already but wondering what you guys think.

I am about to buy a 8V92TA/Allison 740 combo. I am in an "argument" with my diesel guy over this comment in a chat room. A guy contemplating doing in a bus (MC 7) what I am planning and a "good samaritan" lending a hand with advice.:

You will double the power going from a 8V-71 to a 8V-92TA. You will also double the cooling need. Why not turbo your 8V-71? N60 injectors on the 8V-71 will give you 280hp and 740lb/ft torque.

N65 injectors will give you 304hp and 800lb/ft torque. I turbo'd and installed an air to air intercooler using 7G75 injectors that give me 375hp and 1125lb/ft torque. 8V-92TA will give you 450hp and 1400lb/ft torque.

Might consider installing a Detroit Series 50. Greyhound converted some 8's or 9's. So efficient, they eliminated one one of the radiators and used the other radiator space for the air to air intercooler. Series 50 can put out 350hp and 1150lb/ft torque-more than enough.
Thoughts from any of you folks on this comment?
 
Btw, info on MC 7's)

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MCI - MC 7 SPECIFICATIONS

  • Length: 40 feet
  • Width: 96 inches
  • Height: 129 inches
  • Wheelbase: 285 inches
  • Turn radius: 46 feet
  • Typical Engines: DDA 8V-71
  • Seating: 43-49
  • Luggage: 325 cubic feet
  • Aisle width: 14 inches
  • Front door width: 24 inches
PRODUCTION HISTORY

Years, 1968-1973, 2,550 built

The MC-7, based on the shorter MC-5, was designed to replace Greyhound's Scenicruiser fleet which was averaging nearly 14 years old in 1968. The MC-7 was built concurrently with the experimental MC-6.

During its production and Greyhound operating period, the MC-7 represented the current state of intercity coach design with three axles, 40-foot length, and a high seat platform, allowing for substantial underfloor luggage space and absence of wheel-well intrusion into the passenger floor The MC-8 and MC-9 which followed in later years did not change this configuration but rather refined some of the details and updated the styling.
 
Comin' home.

Dunno if any of you ever shipped a bus or similar (40 ft long, 11ft tall, 8 ft wide, 29,000lbs). If ya thought cars/light trucks was an ordeal? My one-time experience could be instructional. Anyway, will be at my place in two days. then the fun really starts.

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IMG953215 (2).jpg
 
Holy Motherlode!!!!! .
Love it. Want some pics when she beaches herself at your place.
 
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You and the Whisperer think a lot alike boss.

1. Engine has appearance/dating (I dont know how they knew but they did) of an original re-power mill. No evidence either way of a rebuild or if original .. but its vintage.

2. So yes, driveline mounting is the original repower configuration it appears

3. We are always going to separate driveline from body and do as you suggest .. my inclination as noted in earlier thread is a more modern piece. But, given 1 above, I am asking Whisperer to talk me down off the ledge (of rebuilding current mill that may be an original repower unit)

4. Yep .. gotta get it under my control, around my guys, at my rates. The PA guys are GREAT .. i wanna emphasize that .. but they don't know me and as busy as their shop is, shoot, they don't need my business. probably would slow them down working on a 60 year old bus. :)

5. This Spicer thing is buggin' me. I wanna stay original but I am completely outta my depth with practical, day-to-day operation of a vehicle like this. The consensus among the bus-o-philes is IF you can go "auto", do it.
  • Unless you've driven big rigs/big manual vehicles, i am told the shifting these old PD-4501's takes the "RV fun" out of it. Typical things .. steep hills, stop-n-go traffic, etc. .. you gotta do wear on you.
  • And then there's the inevitable day when it needs a new home .. does an auto make it easier to sell?
  • And when the time post-retirement comes, I'll be doing it in my mid-60s to whenever .. cant imagine it getting easier as I age.
I just don't want sloppy/incomplete planning to do me in. Could be something else that poops the party, but hopefully not a lazy mind upfront.

So yup that while these early decisions are not irrevocable, they are as you note very important for all sorts of reasons that "we" (people taking on these kinda jobs, be it cars or buses or airplanes or whatever) need to keep in mind.

Lest we find ourselves in an unpleasant place .. not just the whole "money pit" thing but a busted dream on top of that. Both together are pretty bad. :(

Anyway, I'll stay positive and stay on it.

I think the path of least resistance engine wise if it isn't FUBAR, is overhauling what you have. Hopefully it is new enough to have the later 2 piece cross head pistons as they are more durable especially with a hotter tune up. A piston and liner kit with gaskets and bearings from the aftermarket is +/- $2000. If the heads are rebuildable, a good machine shop should have them good as new for another $1500-$2000. I can't remember if they made 8v71s with 2 valve heads or not but 4 valve is the ones you want. Your whisperer can determine if the blower needs attention as well as the air compressor alternator etc.

The standard highway truck tune up was 318 hp. N65 injectors with "standard" timing. The 8v71N was 333 hp with N65 and advanced timing and IIRC 18:1 compression. N70 injectors with the rest of the N tune up makes for a 2 stroke that ain't no joke. I used to run a 72 GMC Astro with that package and it embarrassed more than a few NTC 350 Cummins that thought they were all that and some more.

The 4 speed is going to suck. They were designed specifically for bus duty which means they never had to deal with taking off or backing up on anything but flat ground. The only time the bus should be in reverse was backing out of the depot which was flat, so the high ratio reverse gear didn't matter.

If it was mine and there is room to install it, I'd be putting a 13 speed Eaton in it, not because you need all those gears, but because you can split them. With the 4 speed you basically can't shift up to the next gear unless the engine is against the governor because the RPM drop to the next gear is below the power band if you don't. Same problem downshifting, gear you're lugging in is too high, next one down it's screaming because it's too low. If the 13 is too long to fit, my next choice would be a 9 speed Eaton. Same main box without the auxiliary splitter so it's shorter. Same low and reverse so it will back up SLOWLY and take off on an upgrade without drama. Drop the clutch at idle and it just drives away.

The Series 50 has possibilities if you can buy it right. Those engines have a set of balance shafts in the bottom that need to be serviced every few hundred thousand miles and that is $$$. You would want to verify that had been done by a Detroit dealer I'd say within 150,000 miles to insure they outlive you.
The Series 50 also opens you up to a modern Allison World automatic with 7 speeds tho most had 7th locked out in the computer. The HT740 you mentioned is cursed with the same shortcomings as the Spicer, only 4 gears and too much space between gears. The 8v71 liked the extra gear the HT750 had.

Kevin
 
I think the path of least resistance engine wise if it isn't FUBAR, is overhauling what you have. Hopefully it is new enough to have the later 2 piece cross head pistons as they are more durable especially with a hotter tune up. A piston and liner kit with gaskets and bearings from the aftermarket is +/- $2000. If the heads are rebuildable, a good machine shop should have them good as new for another $1500-$2000. I can't remember if they made 8v71s with 2 valve heads or not but 4 valve is the ones you want. Your whisperer can determine if the blower needs attention as well as the air compressor alternator etc.

The standard highway truck tune up was 318 hp. N65 injectors with "standard" timing. The 8v71N was 333 hp with N65 and advanced timing and IIRC 18:1 compression. N70 injectors with the rest of the N tune up makes for a 2 stroke that ain't no joke. I used to run a 72 GMC Astro with that package and it embarrassed more than a few NTC 350 Cummins that thought they were all that and some more.

The 4 speed is going to suck. They were designed specifically for bus duty which means they never had to deal with taking off or backing up on anything but flat ground. The only time the bus should be in reverse was backing out of the depot which was flat, so the high ratio reverse gear didn't matter.

If it was mine and there is room to install it, I'd be putting a 13 speed Eaton in it, not because you need all those gears, but because you can split them. With the 4 speed you basically can't shift up to the next gear unless the engine is against the governor because the RPM drop to the next gear is below the power band if you don't. Same problem downshifting, gear you're lugging in is too high, next one down it's screaming because it's too low. If the 13 is too long to fit, my next choice would be a 9 speed Eaton. Same main box without the auxiliary splitter so it's shorter. Same low and reverse so it will back up SLOWLY and take off on an upgrade without drama. Drop the clutch at idle and it just drives away.

The Series 50 has possibilities if you can buy it right. Those engines have a set of balance shafts in the bottom that need to be serviced every few hundred thousand miles and that is $$$. You would want to verify that had been done by a Detroit dealer I'd say within 150,000 miles to insure they outlive you.
The Series 50 also opens you up to a modern Allison World automatic with 7 speeds tho most had 7th locked out in the computer. The HT740 you mentioned is cursed with the same shortcomings as the Spicer, only 4 gears and too much space between gears. The 8v71 liked the extra gear the HT750 had.

Kevin

Thanks Kevin. great answer as always. like others, you know your stuff man. :).

May I pick your brain a bit more?

1. What's your thoughts on the cooling issues -- allegedly -- IF an 8v92TA was substituted in my coach?

2. Whisperer had a higher opinion of the Allison 740s ..I think. Sometimes he talks "over my head" though. I will go back to him on that. Recall he isnt doing the work (too much fun being retired and his grandkiddies to wrench on anything) .. he's just keeping me from doing dumb stuff.

3. Shop in PA that first inspected my coach was not keen on the 8V92/740 combo. Engine yeah (didnt seem bothered by cooling), but the electrical system needed a significant upgrade for ANY 80's-later two stroke Detroit, let alone four strokes. They suggested what you did. 8V71 all "N'ed" out, mid three hundreds in HP, 1100-ish ft lbs torgue, with a real good manual was the cost-effective way to go. And she'll get up and go quite nicely and reliably, and maybe get about 6 MPG to boot.

Thanks for a bounce back (or any of you with an opinion) if you get to see this in next few days ... I am nearly ready to buy the 8V92TA now that La Galgo is on her way home.
 
Thanks Kevin. great answer as always. like others, you know your stuff man. :).

May I pick your brain a bit more?

1. What's your thoughts on the cooling issues -- allegedly -- IF an 8v92TA was substituted in my coach?

2. Whisperer had a higher opinion of the Allison 740s ..I think. Sometimes he talks "over my head" though. I will go back to him on that. Recall he isnt doing the work (too much fun being retired and his grandkiddies to wrench on anything) .. he's just keeping me from doing dumb stuff.

3. Shop in PA that first inspected my coach was not keen on the 8V92/740 combo. Engine yeah (didnt seem bothered by cooling), but the electrical system needed a significant upgrade for ANY 80's-later two stroke Detroit, let alone four strokes. They suggested what you did. 8V71 all "N'ed" out, mid three hundreds in HP, 1100-ish ft lbs torgue, with a real good manual was the cost-effective way to go. And she'll get up and go quite nicely and reliably, and maybe get about 6 MPG to boot.

Thanks for a bounce back (or any of you with an opinion) if you get to see this in next few days ... I am nearly ready to buy the 8V92TA now that La Galgo is on her way home.

I'm not familiar with all the different bus rad configurations but from what I gather from a couple of bus forums I hang out at, cooling seems to be an issue with most of them, stock or otherwise. 2 strokes generate a lot of heat, moreso than a 4 stroke so I would be talking to a rad specialist to see if a big enough core can be installed to cool a 92 and if you can get enough air through it. Air management sometimes is the bigger issue on a coach.

Unless the 8v92 you are considering is electronically controlled ie DDEC 8v92, the electrical system requirements are no different than the 8v71. A DDEC3 would be the best of those. They were used up into the early 2000's on military applications but I dont think they were available before the 8v92 was phased out in the early 90's for highway use. DDEC 2 I think was as good as it got. The 3 was just a more sophisticated improved system. Not sure if the DDEC3 is compatible with the Allison World trans but it would be win win if you stay with a 2 stroke. 500+ horsepower capabilities and overdrive to tame the fuel mileage some. Expensive if you have to pay retail which blows feasibility out the window for your application but if you came across one for core price or less... lol.

The HT740 is a bulletproof trans but I'm still in the more gears is better club.

Kevin
 
thx . i dont quite pay full retail but my volume of work gets me parts a low mark up and my willingness to use labor "off peak" helps there

but i am new in this diesel thing so everything is pricier ..especially parts (somethin is going on there in the HD parts market that defies economic logic :BangHead:)

anyway no EC diesels for me but i dont know models well enough ..ill buy whatever Whisperer tells me.

thx again!
 
More fuel &air = more power = more broken parts, or unreliability.
I am a fan of electronic engines, they keep you out of danger zones. If you are definatlely the repower route. Any transmission with more speeds than 4 is better, you can always start in a higher gear if needed.
Easiest and $for $ is to use what you have engine wise, plus a older bus really does need that sound, I think so anyway.
I have a 9 over trans that worked well when it came out of the Frieghtliner I took the engine out of for my Pete. Cheap if your interested. It has a bell housing but no shift tower.
 
More fuel &air = more power = more broken parts, or unreliability.
I am a fan of electronic engines, they keep you out of danger zones. If you are definatlely the repower route. Any transmission with more speeds than 4 is better, you can always start in a higher gear if needed.
Easiest and $for $ is to use what you have engine wise, plus a older bus really does need that sound, I think so anyway.
I have a 9 over trans that worked well when it came out of the Frieghtliner I took the engine out of for my Pete. Cheap if your interested. It has a bell housing but no shift tower.
I have to say I have never driven a slushbox auto in a truck only auto shift. Those were okay but only work on electronic engines.
 
.I have a 9 over trans that worked well when it came out of the Frieghtliner I took the engine out of for my Pete. Cheap if your interested. It has a bell housing but no shift tower.

PM me with details so i can get technnical opinion from Whisperee? or give technical info here and PM me on price. thx Dave
 
Delivered to the NY HD truck repair where the journey starts .. it was at night so this is next day. I was not there and one of the guys there got these shots

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My coach .. couple interior shots of lower deck. on another site, a guy asked me IF I had a sink for the lower john. offered $500 for it. that 10% of what I paid for the whole bus. crazy.

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In contrast, here's what this area looks like in an original configuration

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oh .. how the Red Bull Scenicruiser looks here on lower deck

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