383 Poor Idle

Did you number your cylinders correctly? 1-3-5-7 are on the drivers side in that order. 2-4-6-8 are on the passenger side in that order. If the cylinders are numbered correctly then you have big trouble, if not renumber and tell us.
 
This is a little late to say, but:

If you add a shot of oil to each cylinder and test again it will give you more info about the rings.

If the low cylinders jump up, then you probably have ring issues.

Hope the input doesn't depress you.

John
 
Sorry but that is an indicator of rings.
The readings are all over the place.
The reason you could smooth out the previous car was that all the readings were consistent, albeit low.

I think you misunderstood me Stan...I had readings similar to what I have now....2 or three obviously low...I was able to adjust the valves (it had solid lifters) on my 57 Belvedere 301 V8 and got readings of around 100 +/- 5 AFTER the adjustment. I also had a very smooth idle afterwards too.

Should I be jumping to conclusions now...with a great running 383 albeit a little rough idle and minor intermittent miss(es) when I accelerate slowly...that I need new rings? It seems to me I should try to fog it with the ATF...or what 70BBDodge said tapping the 1 and 5 valves. No?

driver
1 - 85
3 - 125
5 - 95
7 - 140

passenger
2 - 140
4 - 115
6 - 120
8 - 130

Could these numbers not be indicative of sticky valves?

Bob
 
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Should I be jumping to conclusions now...with a great running 383 albeit a little rough idle and ever so minor intermittent miss when I accelerate slowly...that I need new rings? It seems to me I should try to fog it with the ATF...or what 70BBDodge said tapping the 1 and 5 valves. No?

If it was my car, I would try the compression test with oil again. If it doesn't point to the rings, then try the ATF treatment.

The worst that will happen is you waste a quart of ATF and some of your time. But the smoke show will be entertaining.

And if it runs well enough to cruise, then cruise all summer and think about major work over the winter.

Big block Mopars can run sick for a long time before they give up entirely.

Hope the input helps.

John
 
If it was my car, I would try the compression test with oil again. If it doesn't point to the rings, then try the ATF treatment.

The worst that will happen is you waste a quart of ATF and some of your time. But the smoke show will be entertaining.

And if it runs well enough to cruise, then cruise all summer and think about major work over the winter.

Big block Mopars can run sick for a long time before they give up entirely.

Hope the input helps.

John
I would defiantly do the test again with a couple of shots of oil in each cylinder to rule out the rings. Then try the oil, or water down the carb. By the way, how many miles are on your car, and how often do you run it. We are hoping it is just carboned up, and the rings or valves just sticking.
 
If it was my car, I would try the compression test with oil again. If it doesn't point to the rings, then try the ATF treatment.

The worst that will happen is you waste a quart of ATF and some of your time. But the smoke show will be entertaining.

And if it runs well enough to cruise, then cruise all summer and think about major work over the winter.

Big block Mopars can run sick for a long time before they give up entirely.

Hope the input helps.

John

Thanks so much John...I will do a retest on those cylinders with oil...WD-40 ok or do I need to use 10w-30/40. The latter will be obviously harder to get in there.

I would defiantly do the test again with a couple of shots of oil in each cylinder to rule out the rings. Then try the oil, or water down the carb. By the way, how many miles are on your car, and how often do you run it. We are hoping it is just carboned up, and the rings or valves just sticking.

Oh boy...I'm hoping it's just sticky valves too...thanks for the encouragement. 54k miles...car is all original and so nice. I just got the car so personally, I haven't run it very much yet. It sat A LOT with the previous owner. He put 2000 miles on it in 8 years. Original owner put 52k miles in 40 years. Will retest with oil later on...gotta run right now...thanks..

Bob
 
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Thanks so much John...I will do a retest on those cylinders with oil...WD-40 ok or do I need to use 10w-30/40. The latter will be obviously harder to get in there.

Bob

Use engine oil, WD40 won't be thick enough.

Best thing to use is an old fashioned pump oil can or a squeeze bottle with a fairly small tip.

John
 
Thanks so much John...I will do a retest on those cylinders with oil...WD-40 ok or do I need to use 10w-30/40. The latter will be obviously harder to get in there.



Oh boy...I'm hoping it's just sticky valves too...thanks for the encouragement. 54k miles...car is all original and so nice. I just got the car so personally, I haven't run it very much yet. It sat A LOT with the previous owner. He put 2000 miles on it in 8 years. Original owner put 52k miles in 40 years. Will retest with oil later on...gotta run right now...thanks..

Bob
Another thing that might help, drain some oil out of the pan, and put a quart of ATF in the crankcase and let it idle. the detergent in the trans fluid will help clean the lubricating parts.
 
I'll give another lazy mans tip, fwiw. If it is not stalling, making noise, or smoking just run it for the summer enjoy, reevaluate in the fall fix over winter.
 
Squirt oil in the cylinders and re-check the readings. If there is no improvement, making sure the valves are free is the next step. Look at it this way.....for now, all you're doing is removing the plugs. If you need to look at the valves next, you'll be primarily experimenting with the ATF, and you won't even have to take the valve covers off right away. Play around a bit and see what happens, and enjoy driving it in the meantime. One more thing.....get rid of the points ignition. Not that it has anything to do with the problem you have now.....they are just a pain in the ***, in my opinion. Get a Pertronix system so you can keep your existing distributor, spend an hour or so installing it, and never look back. Just my $.02.
 
This is my 2 cents others may not like this butchery but it may get you through the summer and have a vavle job done this winter.

I have always admired your butchery...

Try a wet compression test first. About a teaspoon of motor oil in each cylinder just before you retest it... if the number on #1 and #5 move significantly... you have proven rings to be an issue. Wet will usually raise compression 5 psi or so... so don't fall for that as significant. Test a few of the better cylinders to get a feel for what is going on. Rings on a unused engine may scrub back in if you start driving it more too.

With an air compressor and a cylinder leak down gauge you could prove it's the valves... but don't run out to buy the stuff... unless you really just wanted the excuse for a compressor. ATF is unlikely to solve anything for you from what I read.
 
Rebuild the engine.
:lol:
Now, I'm not stalking you or anything like that... just seem to be in the same threads today.

Just some advice to the amateurs here, I believe the pro's will all agree... When it comes to engine repair... a pro ALWAYS fully diagnoses the problem BEFORE opening the engine. Once it has been rendered inoperable, testing is over. Too many potential problems to rely on visual inspection/measurements showing you the issues after disassembly. Including that you may have a non-internal issue or simple carbon problem.

To repeat something I have said here before, this is a terrible way to try to work through a diagnostic problem. From the perspective of a tech, I have to either assume all of the info is correct and accurately/completely disclosed... or I have to assume everyone is an idiot and not eliminate stuff you say is testing good. "By the way, I just did this before it started" really resets the whole direction... and happens a lot.

If the compression test was done with any inconsistencies, the results we are going by are invalid. Weak battery, failure to open the throttle or remove all plugs... or even just a poor seal at the threaded adapter... I love when someone tries to use a lawn mower compression gauge or one with a rubber cone... and then wants to rely on that information as gospel.

If oil pressure is good and you have no bearing knock, you can safely run the engine a while longer. If your issue is rings, they may improve, if it is valve train it wont. If carbon is an issue, ATF wont hurt if you're careful. Bumping the valves to dislodge carbon is fine, but don't get heavy handed doing it and if you go as far as V/C removal... may as well inspect any signs of cam wear... but why pull it if you don't have to. I prefer to run with magnetic drain plugs, I don't believe they save me anything, they just make it easier to spot if an engine starts to make any serious metal.

Sorry Stan, I would save the rebuild plan for later after it's fully diagnosed and has proven it shouldn't be run this season. The leak down gauge is an investment I would recommend before rebuilding... I just wouldn't send him out to buy one until the wet test showed ring conditions and if rings... they were given a chance to reseat themselves. If he is looking at valve issues, I would want to verify the cam isn't making metal before continued operation. Ultimately there is a point you are risking more harm to the engine, but a little blow by isn't going to do much if you keep the oil fresh.

furyfever, I don't mean to sound stuck up... I'm not and I really hope this all turns out as good as it can for you. I see too much diagnostic work in these threads that turns out to be shaky at best once the true problem is revealed. The internet seems to be as bad a format for diagnosis as I have seen... almost as bad as just replacing parts. I want to see everyone's problems properly diagnosed before they start any repairs, but imagine the frustration of finishing your summer long rebuild just to have the same issues. Relax, test some more, repeat tests even if you think you had everything right... it is so much easier to address stuff that has been completely proven. And if you get to where a rebuild is needed... Stan can bully me for a while.:poke:
 
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I just had to delete a ten paragraph reply because I was thinking I was in another thread... :BangHead:
Anybody that read it must have thought I was out of my mind, lol
 
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Thanks Cantflip...That's excellent advice in my book. I'm having a hard time believing the motor is bad. This car is so clean and has had such good care over it's 48 years, I've got to believe it's sticky valves or yes...I've done something wrong. I caught something you said "all plugs must be removed or throttle opened" to get a valid compression test? I did one at a time and didn't touch the throttle. I've been doing minor repairs on cars for 40 years now...never ever have claimed to be an expert at anything. In fact, I know just enough to get myself in a lot of trouble. Care to expound on how a proper compression test should be done? I have the screw in type comp. gauge....with two different sized threads and hose...rubber o-rings look good. I screwed it in each spark plug hole hand tight. I removed spark plugs one by one to do compression test and then replaced the plug and moved on to the next. That's how I got numbers. Perhaps I should repeat with a better/correct method?...One thing I didn't understand...I smelled gas on last readings (on the driver side) especially #5 and #7 cylinders, the plugs were obviously wet. How could this be without touching the gas pedal? Fuel pump is still trying to pump gas obviously, but carb. float couldn't shut off the gas to carb. bowl and it overflowed into intake? After the 8th cylinder reading, it was obviously flooded because I had to press the accelerator pedal to the floor to get it started. Thanks Cantflip....for taking the time to explain so thoroughly...and to everyone else too, for taking the time to get me on the right track. And you too Stan for your timeless wit. :thumbsup:

Bob
 
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Thanks Cantflip...That's excellent advice in my book. I'm having a hard time believing the motor is bad. This car is so clean and has had such good care over it's 48 years, I've got to believe it's sticky valves or yes...I've done something wrong. I caught something you said "all plugs must be removed or throttle opened" to get a valid compression test? I did one at a time and didn't touch the throttle. I've been doing minor repairs on cars for 40 years now...never ever have claimed to be an expert at anything. In fact, I know just enough to get myself in a lot of trouble. Care to expound on how a proper compression test should be done? I have the screw in type comp. gauge....with two different sized threads and hose...rubber o-rings look good. I screwed it in each spark plug hole hand tight. I removed spark plugs one by one to do compression test and then replaced the plug and moved on to the next. That's how I got numbers. Perhaps I should repeat with a better/correct method?...One thing I didn't understand...I smelled gas and the last few readings on #5 and #7 cylinders, the plugs were wet. How could this be without touching the gas pedal? I started the car after the 8th cylinder reading...and it was obviously flooded as I had to press the accelerator pedal to the floor to get it started.

Bob

Compression test... do the wet test at the same time...
1)Pull all plugs to take load off the starter.
2)Disable ignition (take coil wire off cap and secure to a ground source on the engine.)
3)Strong battery, on a charger if available. a battery that is weakening will give false lows at the end
4)You will want to crank all cylinders even number of times, between 5 and10 revolutions. I like 10
5)Before cranking, wide open the throttle... it assures airflow, but more importantly breaks vacuum draw at the carb and cuts fuel...washed cylinders will read lower. Foot on floor, key to crank, listen for 10 passes...read gauge.
6)Use a transmission funnel, a piece of hose or my favorite.dip a soda straw into the oil bottle. finger on the end to hold the oil until you get the straw end into that tough spark plug hole. A teaspoon is enough... don't worry about how much after that... just relates to the mess you have to clean when finished. Motor oil of what ever you have is fine, no need to get cute or expensive.

The key you are looking for is even readings within 10% of each other is ideal. Keep your readings logged in order and as dry/wet... once you wet test, you cant dry test without giving a good burnoff run around the neighborhood... there may be a little smoke. Do all the cylinders and you will see the wet test raises all readings 5 psi or more... normal, because oil is the final seal for the rings... any readings the go much beyond 10 psi show a ring sealing issue... but washing the cylinders with fuel could also explain the lower dry reading... wide open throttle is important. If wet compression is even, give her a good run... warm up and drive a while at light load as much as you can... nice highway type cruise for example... you dont want to idle much or get on it during this so you don't get too much fuel in the cylinders. Even a well oiled 10-20 mile trip will help the rings reseat a little... and could make a real change.

Some will tell you to do the compression test on a warm engine. I would start it and run it maybe a minute tops to help remove the plugs... but try to get the plugs and compression testing done on a hot engine before it cools enough to change readings is unlikely. Know that your numbers are cool cylinders and will improve when running. Some newer engines have even lost compression that once regained by wet testing seems to stay... that is likely fuel washed cylinders and could happen to an older engine as well. If the wet readings are reasonable... I would definitely run it as is this summer... you can retest and decide what you want before the winter sets in. You may even get a surprise from the end of summer readings.

It may be too late now, but I keep the plugs in order and give them a careful eyeball. Reading the plugs can also give excellent information and clues as to why cylinders are uneven.

One more thing, this should have been the first test BTW. Wide open throttle to cut fuel and crank for several revolutions while listening carefully for the engine to speed up and slow down. If it has a rhythmic change that happens consistently... then I do compression testing to look for uneven cylinders... If it had no change and good power, I wouldn't even bother with compression testing and I wouldn't react to the results of your test. If you have the plugs back in... try this first... then go ahead and give yourself some piece of mind by doing the readings... all information you gather will match up and you may decide none of this mattered in the first place. If everything points to a low cylinder or two and wet testing doesn't help we will happily walk you through leak down testing... but you will need a small tank compressor minimum to perform that test. Oh and a leak down gauge... which shouldn't break the bank, but is more than the average home user would generally have.
 
Thanks Cantflip...I obviously didn't do the compression test correctly. I must have had "washed cylinders" as I smelled gas and found wet plugs on the second half (driver's side). I will repeat as per your procedures. Thanks for taking so much time to explain the correct way to do a compression check.

Additional question: Until I get to this, I will be driving the car when possible. Is there something out there I can add to my gas to clean up sticky valves? There's obviously something wrong in there and if it is sticky valves, might as well put my driving to good use.

Bob
 
Thanks Cantflip...I obviously didn't do the compression test correctly. I must have had "washed cylinders" as I smelled gas and found wet plugs on the second half (driver's side). I will repeat as per your procedures. Thanks for taking so much time to explain the correct way to do a compression check.

Additional question: Until I get to this, I will be driving the car when possible. Is there something out there I can add to my gas to clean up sticky valves? There's obviously something wrong in there and if it is sticky valves, might as well put my driving to good use.

Bob

If you're concerned... just try one of the ATF tricks... Motor oil, drain a little add a quart... run for 15 minutes or so... let sit over night run for another 15 minutes and change oil and filter. If you have concerns after you've driven it a few times, then try it through the carb... but it shouldn't need a whole quart for that and don't hydro lock the engine. It should work just in the oil...

BTW as a kid in the late 70s era, my father killed an engine with his constant attempts to solve carbon/spark knock with miracle in a can... the ATF trick is ok, but not something to go overboard with... I stay away from the miracle products, even the good reputation ones as a rule. Boy was I pissed when he wouldn't let me attempt the rebuild... a wise move on his part, hot rod magazine hadn't prepared me to actually work on a car.

Since your back together... make sure you crank and listen... you may decide the compression thing isn't an issue at all. FYI modern computer controlled cars usually cut fuel if you WOT before cranking too... clear flood strategy mimics carburetor function, but some have additional steps like apply parking brake or service brake to get it to work... same compression test in your DD thanks to that.
 
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