383 Poor Idle

im just throwin this out here b/c no one else has mentioned it. in your OP you said something about increased idle screw to hide/mask the rough idle.

I think you are up off/past your idle circuit and into the main circuit at the carb.

$.02

try not to die -

- saylor
 
Nice day here today is so the wife and I decided to take a drive in the Fury. I had a bottle of Seafoam on the shelf in the garage so I thought "why not pour it in before we go?" I read the directions carefully, saw that it can be added to the oil or gas so I did so accordingly. Added 7.5 oz. (1.5 oz./qt.) to the oil and 8.5 oz. (1 oz/gal) to the slightly over a 1/4 tank I had in the car. Ran it for about 40 miles round trip. I felt it "stumbling" (slight miss) under a slight load (going up slight grades) but not up steep grades. Strange huh? To add to the frustration, the rough idle is not consistent either...at some stop lights it's very noticeable...at others barely noticeable.

Bob
 
Car is idling noticeably better already...and stumbling under minor load has disappeared. Pumped in 10 fresh gallons of gas yesterday and added appropriate amount of Lucas Upper Cylinder Lubricant to the tank. Still have Seafoam in the oil. Driven about a total of 50 miles. Ordered a carb. rebuild kit today because I still can't adjust air mixture outward without roughening idle. I'm optimistic and will wait until I've driven 3-400 miles until I do another compression test.

Bob
 
Car is idling noticeably better already...and stumbling under minor load has disappeared. Pumped in 10 fresh gallons of gas yesterday and added appropriate amount of Lucas Upper Cylinder Lubricant to the tank. Still have Seafoam in the oil. Driven about a total of 50 miles. Ordered a carb. rebuild kit today because I still can't adjust air mixture outward without roughening idle. I'm optimistic and will wait until I've driven 3-400 miles until I do another compression test.

Bob

I'm glad you went the way you did. Can't say I would leave the sea foam in there... but I am a big doubter when it comes to use of additives while running... I would get an oil change soon and get it back out, its not oil.

As far as the next compression test, sound like a good thing for education and to help you sleep at night, but if you WOT and crank and the engine turns over evenly... I wouldn't even bother with it.

As to carb rebuild, it certainly wont hurt anything to get a good cleanup, but i would think of it more as a maintenance item... playing around with mixture screws often gets folks in trouble. Keep in mind that vacuum pulloffs were originally intended to be replaced as part of a tune up and choke adjustments are more likely to fall out of adjustment than mixture screws. Also use some lubricant (any light oil, wd40) on the external linkages. Cleaning products take it away and it doesn't seem to get reapplied. Everything needs to be able to move freely.
 
Well...I've driven the car about 100 miles now...the poor idle/stumbling/missing is still there. At times it seems like it's gone...but it still returns. Frustrating...I decided to do the ATF down the carb today after a quick retest of the low cylinders...1 and 5. Original compression test was 85 and 95 respectively...now they're 60 and 105! Not good. :BangHead: Decided to repeat #1 with some oil in the cylinder (wet compr. test)...used the oil/straw/finger method...it came up to 65...repeated with a little more oil (wasn't sure I got enough in) and it came up to almost 70. So I poured a quart of ATF slowly down the the carb...back and forth down the width of the throat while increasing idle. What a white smoke show in my yard and neighbors too. Did it at a good time though...everyone was at work. Took it for a good long ride afterwards...still, no change.

Is it time to take the valve cover off and try to tap the valves? If so, what should I actually do?

Thanks, Bob
 
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Well...I've driven the car about 100 miles now...the poor idle/stumbling/missing is still there. At times it seems like it's gone...but it still returns. Frustrating...I decided to do the ATF down the carb today after a quick retest of the low cylinders...1 and 5. Original compression test was 85 and 95 respectively...now they're 60 and 105! Not good. :BangHead: Decided to repeat #1 with some oil in the cylinder (wet compr. test)...used the oil/straw/finger method...it came up to 65...repeated with a little more oil (wasn't sure I got enough in) and it came up to almost 70. So I poured a quart of ATF slowly down the the carb...back and forth down the width of the throat while increasing idle. What a white smoke show in my yard and neighbors too. Did it at a good time though...everyone was at work. Took it for a good long ride afterwards...still, no change.

Is it time to take the valve cover off and try to tap the valves? If so, what should I actually do?

Thanks, Bob
Its normal to get a small increase during a wet test, you have proven that you don't have a simple ringl issue. The wet test doesn't completely eliminate the possibility of deeper scores in the bore. 65sporty is right, you most likely have a valve issue.

I recently learned of this test, I have never tried it myself. A running compression test. You would remove the schrader valve from your compression tester hose, and while cranking for compression, watch the gauge closely. Supposedly if the valve guides are worn allowing the valve to seat intermittently... you would see a variety of readings. The needle on the gauge is going to move fast, IDK if I am ready to fully endorse this test.

What you really should do is a cylinder leakage test. A leak down tester at HF is $45 and you need a small compressor with a tank to use it.
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The hose has no schrader valve, so dont mix it up with your compression tester hose. The process with this tool is to bring the cylinder to TDC compression, Zero the gauge (turn the regulator knob until the leak% is zero on the right gauge) to compensate for any leaks in the tool (air leak at the fitting doesn't matter after you zero). Attach the gauge to the hose already installed in the SP hole. The % of leakage is of some concern specs vary, but 20% and up definitely warrants looking for where it leaks from. You need to disconnect the PCV from the valve cover(prevent false diagnostics) and listen at the carb for air escaping (intake valve) the tail pipe (exhaust valve). Some air will naturally get past the pistons, but if you have no air leaks in other areas and lots from the oil fill cap(rings, scored cylinders, etc). Someone will probably point out air could bubble through the cooling system, I have to say if you ever see that... you have a major crack or severe head gasket failure which will require a machine shop.

The point of the leak down test is to find combustion chamber leaks. If the engine rotates when you attach the tool, you will have to disconnect and reset the engine. Your distributor rotor can be used to help you find TDC for the cylinder in question. It usually takes several tries for the first one, if you use a tool to hold the crankshaft, you will most likely damage yourself and/or your car... there is lots of leverage working against you when you give 100 psi to a cylinder on compression. This leak will show where the issue exactly is coming from, or if it passes the test as acceptable leakage, it show your problem is outside of the combustion chamber... like a push rod or cam lobe. That is why I recommend it before you do any teardown. You can plan your work better once you know where the issue is and your compression is bad enough you might see the problem at teardown, but if you don't you will thank me because you will still know exactly where to focus to find it.

If you don't have and can't rent the tools needed, you could pay a shop to do the diagnostic for you. $100-$200 worth of small compressor and gauge would be about the same as I would expect the diagnostic to cost. You will most likely need the services of a good machine shop for this repair... so I wouldn't get excited and disable the car until you have a complete plan.
 
Thanks guys...and especially to you cantflip...for all the detail in trying to educate me to do my own leakdown test. I'm really bumming about this car...first time I ever bought one that needed extensive engine work. It's definitely above my capabilities to take this any farther. I think it's time to take it to a trusted mechanic and tell him what I've done to this point. I can't believe such a nice clean low mile car like this needs (at least) a valve job. I guess it was bound to happen some time (to get a surprise like this). When I was looking at the car in the sellers driveway (obviously not looking beyond the phenomenal condition of the body/interior) I briefly thought to myself...ah, it probably just needs the carb. rebuilt or it needs points, wires or something simple. Now I'm thinking the seller sold it for a really good reason. :(

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He told me his wife was sick of not being able to put her car in the garage...and really acted like he was sad about having to sell it.

:bs_flag:
 
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Thanks guys...and especially to you cantflip...for all the detail in trying to educate me to do my own leakdown test. I'm really bumming about this car...first time I ever bought one that needed extensive engine work. It's definitely above my capabilities to take this any farther. I think it's time to take it to a trusted mechanic and tell him what I've done to this point. I can't believe such a nice clean low mile car like this needs (at least) a valve job. I guess it was bound to happen some time (to get a surprise like this). When I was looking at the car in the sellers driveway (obviously not looking beyond the phenomenal condition of the body/interior) I briefly thought to myself...ah, it probably just needs the carb. rebuilt or it needs points, wires or something simple. Now I'm thinking the seller sold it for a really good reason. :(

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He told me his wife was sick of not being able to put her car in the garage...and really acted like he was sad about having to sell it.

:bs_flag:
Don't feel too bad about it. Let it be an opportunity to get the old girl running right. You know she will run on 7 pretty good so as long as you take things easy on her you can buy a little time. Find your guy and get an estimate soon. Don't feel over whelmed or pressured into the repairs just this moment. I'm thinking, depending on the test results, That a builder 383 wouldn't be too hard to find if you had a modified dream, or a stocker to drop in too... then you could just drop your original off when business slows down a little and get it made right if you like. 383 2bbl is unlikely to require matching numbers when you sell. Engine swaps are not as hard as they sound, so no need to give up hope.
 
Update: I've dropped the oil that had the Seafoam in it. Put over 100 miles on the car with that in the oil. I'm rebuilding carb. right now...bought plugs, points and condenser too as I had similar hesitation/stumbling on my DeSoto from a bad condenser. I have all plugs out now...so I've repeated compression readings on the three low cylinders. 2 of the three low readings came up ten. However, on the lowest reading...(cylinder one) it dropped further from 85 to 60. I decided to add oil to that cylinder and repeat the wet test...This time it jumped way up to 100. I'm not sure why it didn't jump up that high the first time I did it. Shows that it's always important to repeat tests. So now, I'm thinking way different. Perhaps it's a carboned up ring(s) from sitting too long? And the other symptoms: rough idle/hesitation may not be related at all?...unless there are valve problems as well. While oil is out, I've also sprayed a super penetrating oil (an old mechanic friend gave it to me and recommended I do so - I forget what brand right now) in spark plug hole of cylinder # 1 and left it to soak. Plan: let it sit while I rebuild carb. put it all back together with new plugs, points, condenser. Add 4 quarts of 10w-40 and 1 quart of Lucas Heavy Duty Oil Stabilizer and see what happens. I hope to have a smooth idle, no hesitation and a carb. in which I can adjust the fuel/air screw properly. And eventually...a compression reading in cylinder # 1 that slowly rises into spec. :wideyed:

Bob
 
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Well...I have a much smoother idle and no hesitation now. :thumbsup: I am relieved with some caution but now it's time to drive it. Although the carb. is rebuilt now, the single air/fuel mixture screw in back still does not make any sense. Screwing it all the way in does not choke off engine idle. Engine runs the best when it's screwed all the way in. I noticed in the rebuild directions there is a procedure to drill out the two plugs down in front, although there are no springs and screws in the kit. This is where I'm use to adjusting fuel/air mixtures. Initially, I was surprised to see those holes plugged with no adjustment screws in there. Anyone have any insight on this?

Bob
 
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These cars can suffer from lack of use.
 
from what ive seen , those adjusto holes are there, and filled in with lead. i had the single screw carb (likely original) and ditched it for a reman uremco 5-599 from summit before i/us/we/this site got to mess with it. i dont think i even have any pics of it, it was one of the first things to go :/

on the carb i was messing with, the butterfly valve would not lower down far enough to cover up the idle holes and was always in the 'main' and never in the 'idle' circuit.

the car is in too good of condition i wouldnt worry about the motor overall id drive the hell out of it. i still maintain my earlier post its the carb :)

order a carb from summit today, bolt it on tomorrow, and shelf the one you have now.

try not to die -

- saylor
 
I'm really late to this dance, but have to agree with what many others have said: try the simple things like the ATF, Seafoam, and so on, but above all else - drive it. What have you got to lose? Worst case, you end up pulling the motor anyway to repair or rebuild some part or all of it. Best case, it clears itself up over time with some regular use. I have similar (but worse) issues with my '66 300, runs great some days, runs awful and won't idle others. If it ran better and was reliable, I'd be driving the snot out of it while cleaning it out with ATF or whatever else.

If you really get discouraged and can't bear it anymore, I would love to have that headache sitting in my driveway. Right after the move north.

Anyone remember Rislone? Turned a nice running 307 into a smoker with a quart of that stuff. Sometimes cleaner isn't better.
 
I noticed in the rebuild directions there is a procedure to drill out the two plugs down in front, although there are no springs and screws in the kit. This is where I'm use to adjusting fuel/air mixtures. Initially, I was surprised to see those holes plugged with no adjustment screws in there

Not knowing your carburetor # your engine has you may have one from a newer year model. The type of carburetor you are discribing sounds like one from 69-70 ish. If you look through a service manual up until 69 or so the idle screw mixture is in turns of the screw then after that the idle mixture is in air to fuel ratio 14 to 1. Later Carter AVS carburetor so did the same thing. When you have time, remove your carburetor turn it over and look to see if you can see the tip of an adjustment needle in line with the plugs you instructions said to remove. What I think you will find is a needle screw like in the picture. The single large screw is an air adjustment screw so when you screw it out you are leaning out your idle mixture. If see the tip of a mixture screw remove the plugs use a small screwdrive set your mixture as normal, do this with the air mixture screw out about 1 turn or so.
Hope this helps.

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Thanks Saylor...interesting info. on the carb. So Summit has a replacement huh? I'll look into it. I prefer to keep this survivor car original, but main priority is that it runs well. Can I use the same air cleaner? I know Auto Zone has a direct replacement Carter rebuild too. Now, I'm wondering if they have the plugs drilled out and adjustment screws in place.

I have another thought too...If I was going to put a few hundred dollars towards it, it might be nice to find a 4 barrel intake and upgrade to a 4 barrel carb. instead. Does anyone know if a factory air cleaner can be used with a modern off the shelf 4 barrel? I will not put a round chrome air cleaner on this car.

66Newyorker...I do not believe there are screws under those plugs but I'll look. I think Saylor is right...there's lead plugs in there and no screws. Should have looked closer when I had it out to rebuild.

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Thanks to everyone...Bob
 
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Thanks Saylor...interesting info. on the carb. So Summit has a replacement huh? I'll look into it. I prefer to keep this survivor car original, but main priority is that it runs well. Can I use the same air cleaner? I know Auto Zone has a direct replacement Carter rebuild too. Now, I'm wondering if they have the plugs drilled out and adjustment screws in place.

I have another thought too...If I was going to put a few hundred dollars towards it, it might be nice to find a 4 barrel intake and upgrade to a 4 barrel carb. instead. Does anyone know if a factory air cleaner can be used with a modern off the shelf 4 barrel? I will not put a round chrome air cleaner on this car.

66Newyorker...I do not believe there are screws under those plugs but I'll look. I think Saylor is right...there's lead plugs in there and no screws. Should have looked closer when I had it out to rebuild.

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Thanks to everyone...Bob
Without specific familiarity with that carb, I would think there had to be screws under the plugs... but you're right, the rebuild would have been the time to figure it out. I vote you enjoy her a while before getting too crazy. The only real benefit I see to a 4bbl is if you want to get a nice easy to live with Eddy carb and intake... IMO the "upgrade" would be about a new carb with easy adjustability, not so much a performance gain... properly sized, you may pick up a MPG or 2.
 
I wouldn't modify a car as original as that at all.
 
the uremco 5-599 from summit is a bolt on replacement for sure, I did it myself on a stock 1968 383/2, so for sure. the single snorkel air cleaner will fit right on no problem. all the linkage and kickdown and whatnot are all in the correct positions, etc. I did a manual choke and rigged up a pull cable into the cabin.

I got to go with horvaths on this, I wouldn't modify a car this close to original. but the 5-599 is the current 'oem' replacement im pretty sure. id eat the core charge and shelf your original, and bolt on the reman. maybe if you found the proper iron 4bbl intake or the mopar performance / edelbrock copy and like that, at least its still true to what you could have got from mopar... but I would for sure get the reman 5-599 at minimum so you can drive this beast.

further opinion - the 2bbl is great on gas milage, but with 2.76 one legged rear end I can floor it and not be scared.

try not to die -

- saylor
 
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