A518 conversion on a pushbutton 727

[3175375]

Let's do the math...

You want to save fuel, and that's all cool but let's see the real cost.

Let's say you buy the $600 kit... and then buy a rebuilt trans. What do you think? $2000 all in? Maybe that's optimistic. I'm betting closer to $3k by the time everything is done, buying mounts and adding up all the "nickle and dime" stuff.

So.... Let's say you drive that Imperial about 10K miles a year. I think that's a lot, but you are in better weather year round than I am.

Let's get optimistic again and say you are going to get 20% better mileage. Probably not near that.... but whatever... and the car now gets 13MPG. A 20% increase in gas mileage gets you to 15.6 MPG.

I paid $5.25 the other day for ethanol free gas, so we'll use those numbers. 10k miles at 13MPG equals $769 spent on gas. 10k miles at 15.6 MPG equals $641 spent on gas for a $128 savings per year for gas.

So, using really optimistic numbers for gas mileage increase (20%) and optimistic numbers for the cost ($2000), it will take 15.6 years at 10k miles a year to break even even at $5.25 per gallon.

If you used some less optimistic, but more "real world" numbers of 10% mileage increase with $3000 cost, now you have 14.3 MPG and $699 cost per year so saving $70 per year. Do the math on that and it's 42.8 years before you break even.

If you only drive the Imperial 5k miles a year, double that time to break even. If gas prices go down, the savings will take longer.

This is the argument I give whenever I hear "increase fuel mileage" as a reason to throw wads of money at a car.

I believe that he’s doing it (if he does) ‘because it’s unique and he can’.

 

[MONC440]

Let's do the math...

You want to save fuel, and that's all cool but let's see the real cost.

Let's say you buy the $600 kit... and then buy a rebuilt trans. What do you think? $2000 all in? Maybe that's optimistic. I'm betting closer to $3k by the time everything is done, buying mounts and adding up all the "nickle and dime" stuff.

So.... Let's say you drive that Imperial about 10K miles a year. I think that's a lot, but you are in better weather year round than I am.

Let's get optimistic again and say you are going to get 20% better mileage. Probably not near that.... but whatever... and the car now gets 13MPG. A 20% increase in gas mileage gets you to 15.6 MPG.

I paid $5.25 the other day for ethanol free gas, so we'll use those numbers. 10k miles at 13MPG equals $769 spent on gas. 10k miles at 15.6 MPG equals $641 spent on gas for a $128 savings per year for gas.

So, using really optimistic numbers for gas mileage increase (20%) and optimistic numbers for the cost ($2000), it will take 15.6 years at 10k miles a year to break even even at $5.25 per gallon.

If you used some less optimistic, but more "real world" numbers of 10% mileage increase with $3000 cost, now you have 14.3 MPG and $699 cost per year so saving $70 per year. Do the math on that and it's 42.8 years before you break even.

If you only drive the Imperial 5k miles a year, double that time to break even. If gas prices go down, the savings will take longer.

This is the argument I give whenever I hear "increase fuel mileage" as a reason to throw wads of money at a car.

I'm not the OP but whenever I did/do a OD conversion it has never been about fuel. It's about having a low gear and still be able to drive a 4 hour road trip. In my youth I had a 340 dart with a 727 and 4.30 gears. I loved driving that car a 1/4 mile at a time but hated driving it more than 15 miles in any direction. I would have done a lot more with that car if I had a OD trans.

 

[Big_John]

I believe that he’s doing it (if he does) ‘because it’s unique and he can’.

That's fine IF that's why he's doing it. Post #13 says " I was looking for a little better fuel economy" as the reason.

I don't care if he wants to spend his money... I'm just using this as an example of how everyone gets crazy with "mileage improvements" and tries to justify it as cost savings when it's just spending money. YMMV.

 

[Big_John]

I'm not the OP but whenever I did/do a OD conversion it has never been about fuel. It's about having a low gear and still be able to drive a 4 hour road trip. In my youth I had a 340 dart with a 727 and 4.30 gears. I loved driving that car a 1/4 mile at a time but hated driving it more than 15 miles in any direction. I would have done a lot more with that car if I had a OD trans.

I addressed the OP's Post #13 where he says " I was looking for a little better fuel economy".

I get having it for the low gear.. My A12 Roadrunner had 4.10 rear and yea, it would have been cool to have the higher gear for trips. Yep, does save a little gas and wear and tear, but you'll never justify the gas mileage increase... Doing it for the sake of doing it is great.

 

[MONC440]

That's fine IF that's why he's doing it. Post #13 says " I was looking for a little better fuel economy" as the reason.

I don't care if he wants to spend his money... I'm just using this as an example of how everyone gets crazy with "mileage improvements" and tries to justify it as cost savings when it's just spending money. YMMV.

We all have to make up some kind of justification for what we do. I'm fine with just saying I want to go quicker and faster at the same time......other guys have to say stuff like "I want better fuel economy" or whatever. I say whatever you have to tell yourself, or the wife, to get the job done is fine.

 

[Big_John]

Well I do have some good news! Imperial services is now called Promerican Engineering and they still maintain their website. I couldn't find the kit so I emailed them... 895 for the kit or send my controls in for 595. Not terrible but I was hoping to have a "reversible option" incase I need to go back to my original transmission

Imperial Services does not have the best reputation for service, although their products were supposed to be good. Be cautious.

 

[twostick]

Let's do the math...

You want to save fuel, and that's all cool but let's see the real cost.

Let's say you buy the $600 kit... and then buy a rebuilt trans. What do you think? $2000 all in? Maybe that's optimistic. I'm betting closer to $3k by the time everything is done, buying mounts and adding up all the "nickle and dime" stuff.

So.... Let's say you drive that Imperial about 10K miles a year. I think that's a lot, but you are in better weather year round than I am.

Let's get optimistic again and say you are going to get 20% better mileage. Probably not near that.... but whatever... and the car now gets 13MPG. A 20% increase in gas mileage gets you to 15.6 MPG.

I paid $5.25 the other day for ethanol free gas, so we'll use those numbers. 10k miles at 13MPG equals $769 spent on gas. 10k miles at 15.6 MPG equals $641 spent on gas for a $128 savings per year for gas.

So, using really optimistic numbers for gas mileage increase (20%) and optimistic numbers for the cost ($2000), it will take 15.6 years at 10k miles a year to break even even at $5.25 per gallon.

If you used some less optimistic, but more "real world" numbers of 10% mileage increase with $3000 cost, now you have 14.3 MPG and $699 cost per year so saving $70 per year. Do the math on that and it's 42.8 years before you break even.

If you only drive the Imperial 5k miles a year, double that time to break even. If gas prices go down, the savings will take longer.

This is the argument I give whenever I hear "increase fuel mileage" as a reason to throw wads of money at a car.

I'd do it just so you could run a 3.55-3.91 and not be any worse off on the highway RPMwise and give the stoplight performance a huge boost. If you get any increase in fuel economy, that's a bonus but I suspect the increase would be greater in town than on the highway. Steeper rear gears will get the car moving easier with less throttle input than it does now with the 2.94.

I thought A&A had took over the cable conversion kits from Imperial after they folded their tent. Rick has had them for a number of years.

Push Button Conversion Cable Set for 1966-Up Torqueflite in a 1962-65 Vehicle - A&A Transmissions

Kevin

 

[cbarge]

Steve Hobby has a 62 New Yorker and has been engineering the factory pushbuttons to work on his OD trans.
Aka the Blue Diamond,that he bought from Scott Allred years ago.
He should have the prototype ready by this year.
Sorry no pics as he may patent the design.
@Snotty

 

[Snotty]

The old beast looks good! Lot better than it did when he towed it home from Oregon! Yuck!!

 

[64Imperial]

Let's do the math...

You want to save fuel, and that's all cool but let's see the real cost.

Let's say you buy the $600 kit... and then buy a rebuilt trans. What do you think? $2000 all in? Maybe that's optimistic. I'm betting closer to $3k by the time everything is done, buying mounts and adding up all the "nickle and dime" stuff.

So.... Let's say you drive that Imperial about 10K miles a year. I think that's a lot, but you are in better weather year round than I am.

Let's get optimistic again and say you are going to get 20% better mileage. Probably not near that.... but whatever... and the car now gets 13MPG. A 20% increase in gas mileage gets you to 15.6 MPG.

I paid $5.25 the other day for ethanol free gas, so we'll use those numbers. 10k miles at 13MPG equals $769 spent on gas. 10k miles at 15.6 MPG equals $641 spent on gas for a $128 savings per year for gas.

So, using really optimistic numbers for gas mileage increase (20%) and optimistic numbers for the cost ($2000), it will take 15.6 years at 10k miles a year to break even even at $5.25 per gallon.

If you used some less optimistic, but more "real world" numbers of 10% mileage increase with $3000 cost, now you have 14.3 MPG and $699 cost per year so saving $70 per year. Do the math on that and it's 42.8 years before you break even.

If you only drive the Imperial 5k miles a year, double that time to break even. If gas prices go down, the savings will take longer.

This is the argument I give whenever I hear "increase fuel mileage" as a reason to throw wads of money at a car.

Hey thanks for the breakdown! I kinda already ran the numbers because it is a lot of money for sometimes a marginal gain. It's going to be basically my daily driver, especially running it alot for the summer! I'd love to take it to the beach soon and maybe go over route 66 towards the end of summer.

That's just how the idea started, it's like how much gas are you going to use... with the highest fuel prices ever and what can you do to improve what you have.

 

[64Imperial]

I think I just need to give everyone my broader ideas so we can hash out everything together. I do need the pros and cons outside of my own head with other knowledgeable people.

I'm basically building my Imperial to be like a daily driver. It's going to look pretty for a car show, but I need it to preform when I go on long trips. I live in the mountains of Maryland in a very economically depressed town. And among all the hills you have to drive at least 1 hour in any direction to do anything.

The car when I bought it had everything down to the seals... original from 64! I'm going to be tearing down the engine soon and just building it back stock with a few tweaks. I thought while I was doing that, why not work on the transmission.

My uncle has many parts cars like jeeps and ram trucks from the 80s and 90s, so I definitely know I'll have a transmission.

I am swapping all brakes to disks and used the original hubs that I removed from the drums in the rear and keeping the original axles to build the rear. I also need to service the differential so that would be a great time to add the new gears.

Basically one thing leads to another with all this updating and if I'm going to do it, I might as well do it while in the process. If it's possible and something I can see spending the extra time and money on, it gives a good benefit, then I won't mind.

I just need other opinions outside of my own to help give a clearer picture and I'll judge if it's honestly worth the extra effort and cost

Thanks everyone so far! It's definitely helped fill the gaps that I didn't even think about!

 

[MONC440]

I think I just need to give everyone my broader ideas so we can hash out everything together. I do need the pros and cons outside of my own head with other knowledgeable people.

I'm basically building my Imperial to be like a daily driver. It's going to look pretty for a car show, but I need it to preform when I go on long trips. I live in the mountains of Maryland in a very economically depressed town. And among all the hills you have to drive at least 1 hour in any direction to do anything.

The car when I bought it had everything down to the seals... original from 64! I'm going to be tearing down the engine soon and just building it back stock with a few tweaks. I thought while I was doing that, why not work on the transmission.

My uncle has many parts cars like jeeps and ram trucks from the 80s and 90s, so I definitely know I'll have a transmission.

I am swapping all brakes to disks and used the original hubs that I removed from the drums in the rear and keeping the original axles to build the rear. I also need to service the differential so that would be a great time to add the new gears.

Basically one thing leads to another with all this updating and if I'm going to do it, I might as well do it while in the process. If it's possible and something I can see spending the extra time and money on, it gives a good benefit, then I won't mind.

I just need other opinions outside of my own to help give a clearer picture and I'll judge if it's honestly worth the extra effort and cost

Thanks everyone so far! It's definitely helped fill the gaps that I didn't even think about!

If you are not concerned about keeping the car stock and you have the money to do it I don't see why you wouldn't want to. It is a project to complete but not to bad. It all boils down to how bad to you want a better performing car?

Pros: Better performance, longer engine life, (a little) better gas, and a transmission that could be worked on almost anywhere in the US if you happen to break down.
Cons: Cost, not original, cost, extra labor, cost, fabrication work, oh did I mention cost?.

Can you rebuild a 518 yourself? If so that is a huge cost savings.

 

[fury fan]

Let's do the math...

You want to save fuel, and that's all cool but let's see the real cost.

Let's say you buy the $600 kit... and then buy a rebuilt trans. What do you think? $2000 all in? Maybe that's optimistic. I'm betting closer to $3k by the time everything is done, buying mounts and adding up all the "nickle and dime" stuff.

So.... Let's say you drive that Imperial about 10K miles a year. I think that's a lot, but you are in better weather year round than I am.

Let's get optimistic again and say you are going to get 20% better mileage. Probably not near that.... but whatever... and the car now gets 13MPG. A 20% increase in gas mileage gets you to 15.6 MPG.

I paid $5.25 the other day for ethanol free gas, so we'll use those numbers. 10k miles at 13MPG equals $769 spent on gas. 10k miles at 15.6 MPG equals $641 spent on gas for a $128 savings per year for gas.

So, using really optimistic numbers for gas mileage increase (20%) and optimistic numbers for the cost ($2000), it will take 15.6 years at 10k miles a year to break even even at $5.25 per gallon.

If you used some less optimistic, but more "real world" numbers of 10% mileage increase with $3000 cost, now you have 14.3 MPG and $699 cost per year so saving $70 per year. Do the math on that and it's 42.8 years before you break even.

If you only drive the Imperial 5k miles a year, double that time to break even. If gas prices go down, the savings will take longer.

This is the argument I give whenever I hear "increase fuel mileage" as a reason to throw wads of money at a car.

Generally I agree that modifying solely for MPG improvements isn't a worthwhile investment.
However - most EFI or OD/re-gearing projects result in a vastly more enjoyable car.

But the math above skipped a step.
10k miles at 13MPG equals 769 gallons consumed, not $$ saved.
So the payback is shorter.

 

[Big_John]

But the math above skipped a step.
10k miles at 13MPG equals 769 gallons consumed, not $$ saved.
So the payback is shorter.

You know... I kept looking at the math and saying "something is missing"... LOL. But I got the point across.

 

[64Imperial]

Where should my cruising rpm be at? Like around 2200 to 2600? That would open up some different rear gears and still keep it somewhat quiet.

Also what year and model did you find for your A518?

 

[cbarge]

With the OD trans, you will need 3.55 gears and 23575r15 tires.
Engine should be at 2000 rpm cruising at 65 MPH.
If I remember correctly, get a pre-electronic transmission from a 1988 to 1995 truck that does not require a computer control module.
Hope this helps.

 

[1970FuryConv]

Oh one more thing before you buy the trans make sure you get a pre 1992 (I think) You want the one shown below with the 3 pin, not the bigger 5 pin. The newer trans has a electronically controlled governor and you need a computer for that. The 3 pin you just need switches for the OD and LU.
View attachment 533154

My 1994 46RH is 3-pin

 

[twostick]

Does that car have a 2 piece driveshaft with a carrier bearing in the middle? GearVendors has a stand alone unit for trucks that has a yoke on both ends. Even if the Imp doesn't have that type of driveline, it's a full frame car so you could fab up a crossmember to hang the GV on and split the drive shaft.

This accomplishes a few things, 1, you don't have to disturb your pushbuttons, 2, you don't have to buy, build and adapt another transmission and make it fit where it doesn't belong and 3, it gives you a bulletproof OD that you can use to turn your 3 speed into a 6 speed.

Kevin

 

[kmccabe56]

Let's do the math...

You want to save fuel, and that's all cool but let's see the real cost.

Let's say you buy the $600 kit... and then buy a rebuilt trans. What do you think? $2000 all in? Maybe that's optimistic. I'm betting closer to $3k by the time everything is done, buying mounts and adding up all the "nickle and dime" stuff.

So.... Let's say you drive that Imperial about 10K miles a year. I think that's a lot, but you are in better weather year round than I am.

Let's get optimistic again and say you are going to get 20% better mileage. Probably not near that.... but whatever... and the car now gets 13MPG. A 20% increase in gas mileage gets you to 15.6 MPG.

I paid $5.25 the other day for ethanol free gas, so we'll use those numbers. 10k miles at 13MPG equals $769 spent on gas. 10k miles at 15.6 MPG equals $641 spent on gas for a $128 savings per year for gas.

So, using really optimistic numbers for gas mileage increase (20%) and optimistic numbers for the cost ($2000), it will take 15.6 years at 10k miles a year to break even even at $5.25 per gallon.

If you used some less optimistic, but more "real world" numbers of 10% mileage increase with $3000 cost, now you have 14.3 MPG and $699 cost per year so saving $70 per year. Do the math on that and it's 42.8 years before you break even.

If you only drive the Imperial 5k miles a year, double that time to break even. If gas prices go down, the savings will take longer.

This is the argument I give whenever I hear "increase fuel mileage" as a reason to throw wads of money at a car.

I wondered when someone was going to lead that elephant into the room. The cost/benefit ratio of doing any of these high dollar mods is just not there.

 

[C-HP Polara]

Just a couple of observations: (1) My '64 300K has a center console with the auto trans shifter, is this adaptable for you if you choose not use the push buttons?
I know you are trying to continue the dash mount system, but this is an alternative.
(2) Your picture of the bottom of your car doesn't show the connection of transmission to driveshaft, if like mine the output shaft is flanged and bolts to the trunnion style front end of the driveshaft. If you change transmissions you'll have to change to an appropriate driveshaft.