Thanks everyone! I really appreciate all the help. I know most of this stuff is old hat to you guys, but it's mostly new to me and is helping a lot. I'll eventually get it sorted out. Today was painful, but I learned a lot from it.
Idle speed?
- Thread starter Jeff
- Start date
Are these Carter type pumps the cheap knockoffs you mentioned?
Mopar Engine Fuel Parts|Restoration Parts|Jim's Auto Parts pumps
The Chinese knock off fuel pumps usually go for $19.95 to $24.95. USA made pumps are usually $45-$50. So with any luck at that price they should be the good ones. To be sure contact the seller before ordering.
Dave
Price isn't always a good indication. Always check the packaging for deviations from prior known-correct packaging printing. IF you find somebody selling "knockoffs", pass that information to the appropriate entity so that supply channel can be scrutinized, rather than just talking about it, please. Whether it's fuel pumps or oil filters.
CBODY67
CBODY67
I realize that the link goes to a known, long-term Mopar repro parts vendor, but if you're going to price-shop somewhat common parts, a repro vendor is not the place to do that, with all due respect. Granted, they might deserve points for getting all of that stuff together and packaging it in "per vehicle" lots (when they bought it in bulk), but for some of their items that I would have gotten from a salvage yard, too much price differential. To each their own . . .
CBODY67
CBODY67
Gerald Morris
Senior Member
I too swear AT electric fuel pumps. Only time I ever had one to any good purpose was on a 1955 Apache pickup w the old big (296 in^3) 6. It made the thing drive-able at a time when I had a hard time finding the mechanical replacement. The thing left much to be desired for all that. You (Jeff) can EASILY find a GOOD mechanical fuel pump for your ride. Do it and be happy.
Agreed that price is not necessarily the best indicator of quality as some vendors will mark up an inferior item and try to pass it off as an original or stick a Chinese fuel pump in an original box. Most local auto parts these days, Auto Zone, O'Reillys or Car Quest are selling Chinese made fuel pumps that are priced cheaply but are of very poor quality which was the point of my previous post. The best way to get some of the outfits to stock quality parts is to refuse to buy the cheap crap. Quality parts are still out there, it just takes some effort to find them.
Dave
The problem is that until the auto supply chains using the inferior parts (from whatever origin) start getting too many warranty returns or mad customers, they'll keep on selling things as they have been. Even if the returns start to spike, it can be close to a year when they re-source their product lines. It's not specifically where the part is built, but what specs it's built to. Just as in the new car business, if the OEM feels they need to get the price of a vehicle down $25.00 to be more competitive, the engineers/designers have to find a way to do that. In the deLorean book on his time at GM, GM Financial did that to them at Pontiac. So that explained why one year would have great durable upholstery and the next model year might not, or a piece of chrome was deleted from the base model. In more recent times, it could mean a switch with a projected failure rate of 35% rather than 20%, for example. All of the OEMS play that game when they price-out their almost ready for production vehicles. The parts vendors play that game too. End result is that we should get the best-value parts we can afford, especially if they are "name brands" rather than "house brands" at the auto supplies, for the best overall value. But there are some house brands (repackaged name brands, in many cases) that are very good.
To me, one key thing is to look around enough to see which mass producer is the dominant force in the particular parts item. The one company that had their own name brand, that also sells them to other vendors. When you get to that lowest part of the supply chain, the prices are usually better, by observation. Some chains, as NAPA, sell parts made by others, usually using the same part number, just with the "-" in a different place. Using online sellers as RockAuto for price and availability research is a good shopping tool, also. I might "over-shop" things, but it also gives me a better idea of what's really out there, rather than relying completely on a local auto supply that sells just certain brands (which might not have the part I desire, when other brands they can't get do have it).
As with oil filters, there are about two manufacturers of all of the oil filters in the USA, with one being larger than the other one. They build the products "to specs" for their varied customers. All of the brands they build will have different specs (filter media specs, type of relief valve, type of anti-drainback valve materials), but all get the same level of assembly quality, I suspect. For some, that least expensive part might work just fine, but for others, it's "trouble". Buyer beware.
CBODY67
To me, one key thing is to look around enough to see which mass producer is the dominant force in the particular parts item. The one company that had their own name brand, that also sells them to other vendors. When you get to that lowest part of the supply chain, the prices are usually better, by observation. Some chains, as NAPA, sell parts made by others, usually using the same part number, just with the "-" in a different place. Using online sellers as RockAuto for price and availability research is a good shopping tool, also. I might "over-shop" things, but it also gives me a better idea of what's really out there, rather than relying completely on a local auto supply that sells just certain brands (which might not have the part I desire, when other brands they can't get do have it).
As with oil filters, there are about two manufacturers of all of the oil filters in the USA, with one being larger than the other one. They build the products "to specs" for their varied customers. All of the brands they build will have different specs (filter media specs, type of relief valve, type of anti-drainback valve materials), but all get the same level of assembly quality, I suspect. For some, that least expensive part might work just fine, but for others, it's "trouble". Buyer beware.
CBODY67
70bigblockdodge
Old Man with a Hat
Just go on rock auto and order a pump. I like to stay away from the inverted flare outlets, the inner hole on those is maybe 1/8" not enough area in that hol for fuel flow to a big block at 5000 rpm. What I have seen recently is pipe thread on the outlet which requires buying another fitting so keep on mind.
I did a flow test and there is definitely a fuel delivery problem to the carb. I got just over a pint in one minute. The FSM specs are a quart in a minute or less. The replacement mechanical pumps deliver a little more than a quart a minute.
70BBD suggested starting at the tank. I liked that idea until I took a look under the car. It does look like the original hose is still on there, and there is a super tough coating of something all over that area. It will be a real pain to pull the sending unit/pickup and replace the hose. But I think it is probably necessary. It seems to me that maybe the mechanical fuel pump that is on there is actually OK and the problem is at the tank. When I got this car there was a new looking carb with the choke wired in the open position (electric choke not hooked up), the kickdown linkage was disconnected and laying on the intake manifold, and this electric fuel pump was jury-rigged into the engine compartment. They must have been having fuel issues and there are still fuel issues. The tank area is the one untouched link.
70BBD suggested starting at the tank. I liked that idea until I took a look under the car. It does look like the original hose is still on there, and there is a super tough coating of something all over that area. It will be a real pain to pull the sending unit/pickup and replace the hose. But I think it is probably necessary. It seems to me that maybe the mechanical fuel pump that is on there is actually OK and the problem is at the tank. When I got this car there was a new looking carb with the choke wired in the open position (electric choke not hooked up), the kickdown linkage was disconnected and laying on the intake manifold, and this electric fuel pump was jury-rigged into the engine compartment. They must have been having fuel issues and there are still fuel issues. The tank area is the one untouched link.
put a vac. gauge on the tank side of the fuel pump. Crank eng. over. Vac gauge should show 10-15 inches of vac. If your gauge reads this, the problem is in your fuel tank. low vac reading either fuel pump or pump push rod and or eccentric cam problem.
That mess all over everything is undercoating that is supposed to slow the formation of rust. It is a major pain in the butt to remove as it is usually asphalt based with fiberglass strands.. Some manufacturers also used other fibers which may be toxic. As noted in the previous post, low vac is an indication of a leak someplace in the supply line from the tank or the pick up tube inside of the tank. High vac is usually the result of a clogged pick up filter on the end of the pick up tube. Note that a defective fuel pump will also cause low vac.
Dave
Dave
70bigblockdodge
Old Man with a Hat
If the pump is old on the engine your probably better off replacing than testing, it will fail. Pull it then pull the rod if it looks good and measures correct, get a new pump and then check the sending unit the sock is clogged or the pick up tube has pin holes in it both of which you will see in 10 seconds after you get it out. Blow some air through the fuel line to the pump even if it is your air from lungs you will know immediately if the line is plugged enough to shut car off. My car ran ok with both pin holes and clogged fuel line.
Before you through that electric pump in the scrap heap smack it with a hammer so no body else has to go through this.
Before you through that electric pump in the scrap heap smack it with a hammer so no body else has to go through this.
That undercoating looks more like it came "after production" to me. It might be oil-based, but that oil has probably dried-up somewhat so it might just flake off with a putty knife. Especially if it was not reasonable clean when it was applied.
The "sock" in the tank is more there to restrict water than to be a real "filter". IF the car has sat as long as it has, and the fuel is an ethanol blend, then "phase separation" probably has happened. The ethanol/alcohol absorbs the moisture that happens via condensation inside of the tank, then that "gunk" settles to the bottom of the tank . . . which is where the fuel pickup is. I think you said you pumped the old fuel out, but until you pull the tank, that stuff is probably still in there near the fuel pickup tube.
In many cases, on an older vehicle which had ethanol-blend fuel in it now, if the fuel pump diaphragm becomes "dry" (from sitting idle), when new fuel gets to the pump, the brittle diaphragm will soon fail and leak, sooner or later. So figure some sort of new fuel pump into your budget for the car, for good measure.
UNTIL you get that "rear section" issue figured out, you can go down to the sporting goods store and get a portable gas tank for an outboard boat motor. You can hook it to the existing feed side of the fuel pump to run the car (and even move it around some). A temporary "fix" until you can get to the tank area for further investigation.
CBODY67
The "sock" in the tank is more there to restrict water than to be a real "filter". IF the car has sat as long as it has, and the fuel is an ethanol blend, then "phase separation" probably has happened. The ethanol/alcohol absorbs the moisture that happens via condensation inside of the tank, then that "gunk" settles to the bottom of the tank . . . which is where the fuel pickup is. I think you said you pumped the old fuel out, but until you pull the tank, that stuff is probably still in there near the fuel pickup tube.
In many cases, on an older vehicle which had ethanol-blend fuel in it now, if the fuel pump diaphragm becomes "dry" (from sitting idle), when new fuel gets to the pump, the brittle diaphragm will soon fail and leak, sooner or later. So figure some sort of new fuel pump into your budget for the car, for good measure.
UNTIL you get that "rear section" issue figured out, you can go down to the sporting goods store and get a portable gas tank for an outboard boat motor. You can hook it to the existing feed side of the fuel pump to run the car (and even move it around some). A temporary "fix" until you can get to the tank area for further investigation.
CBODY67
I was surprised to see the undercoating. It is not obviously visible on other parts of the underside I have visited. It is on top side of the tank but not below the seam. Maybe it wore off over the years where it is more exposed. I can barely scratch it with a putty knife. Normally I would try heat, but obviously can't do that here.
I'll see if one of my neighbors has a vacuum gauge. In the meantime, it seems like I could put the hose leading to the pump in a gas can and do the one-minute test again. If I still get a pint, then it's just the pump. If I get a quart or more, then the problem is somewhere from tank to pump. Either way, I will replace the electric pump, but it is handy for troubleshooting at this point.
I'll see if one of my neighbors has a vacuum gauge. In the meantime, it seems like I could put the hose leading to the pump in a gas can and do the one-minute test again. If I still get a pint, then it's just the pump. If I get a quart or more, then the problem is somewhere from tank to pump. Either way, I will replace the electric pump, but it is handy for troubleshooting at this point.
Sounds like a good plan to me. Leave the undercoating as is. unless it interferes with tank removal. Remove and cut open the fuel filter to find contamination. Will also give you an idea what the inside condition of the fuel tank is [ rust dirt ect. ]
I'm super disappointed. I did the test from a gas can instead of the tank and got almost two quarts in 50 seconds. The problem is clearly in the tank or fuel line, which really stinks.
I was thinking about blowing some compressed air down the fuel line from the engine compartment to the tank (with the gas cap off). I thought that might temporarily alleviate the problem. Any reason that is a bad idea?
I was thinking about blowing some compressed air down the fuel line from the engine compartment to the tank (with the gas cap off). I thought that might temporarily alleviate the problem. Any reason that is a bad idea?
My guess is that the sock on the end of the fuel pickup is probably clogged with debris. Blowing air back thru the line will probably dislodge some of this, but it will clog again. You probably do not want to drive the car on the road until the tank has been removed and cleaned out. As your tank and fuel sending unit is covered with aftermarket undercoating, removing the tank for cleaning is probably your best option since trying to get the fuel sending unit out with all that thick undercoating is going to be a real pain in the butt. If your are going to try blowing out the sock, use compressed CO2 as that is a whole lot safer.
Dave
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