Thinking about the valve train

ImpJay

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On the right side the rocker arms are able to move about .02`` along the longitudinal axis of the rocker shaft. This is heard only every now and then and the noise is caused only when the valve springs are slightly compressed. It stops by revving the engine.

The FSM does not tell anything about possible lash, so I have to rely on you, mechanic wizards. So is there any permissible amount of lash on the rocker arms, or should I replace them? The patient is a 67 440 RB.

30.5.2019 007.JPG
 
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That is not enough rocker play (.02) to worry about on a stock engine and the rockers appear to be oiling well. With a stock cam some lash was always present as you are dealing with stamped sheet metal rockers. The side to side tipping was an issue on high lift cams in race engines which is why the racing valve trains usually had solid rockers with bronze bushings. You do not need to worry about that on a stock driver. There are usually some shims between the rocker pairs, as long as those are in place everything you describe would be normal for a stock valve train. Put it back together and forget about it.

Dave
 
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Jay, have you had any ignition issues? I only ask because that coil seems awfully close to the exhaust manifold.
 
With all the problems in The world you need to stop looking for more. It’s fine.
 
You might also want to check the hose routing for the vacuum advance, they were generally always hooked to the throttle plate port.

Dave
 
On the right side the rocker arms are able to move about .02`` along the longitudinal axis of the rocker shaft

To be sure we are on the same page... You are saying that the rocker arms can move side to side .020" on the right side. Correct?

That is completely different from valve lash which is the space between the end of the valve stem and the rocker arm.

Assuming you're talking about side to side, that's normal and nothing to worry about.
 
Did you remove the shaft and check for wear? It’s not uncommon for these shafts to wear out resulting in noise. In the day I replaced many of them.
 
Just curious . . . what cam,valve lift specs, pushrods, lifters, and oil pressure when you hear the noise? Are the shafts and rocker arms showing any wear patterns?

As I understand it, when the non-adjustable rocker arms are used, when the rocker arm shaft is carefully torqued, even the valves which are closed, those lifters' plungers will be compressed by the push rods. Therefore, there should be no "slack" in the system, even when the engine is stopped, due to the lifter pre-load which is built into the system.

On "dedicated adjustment" valve trains, to un-pre-load the lifters, for allegedly better high rpm potential, you put washers between the rocker shaft and the rocker shaft support stands. But, there should be no slack in the system. Same with adjustable rocker arms (ala small block Chevy) which are adjusted for .5 turn pre-load.

The mention of revving the engine to get things to quieten down might tend to indicate some lifters are not fully pumped-up until a certain threshold of oil pressure is reached?

Just trying to make some sense of why a non-adjustable hydraulic valve train is sometimes making noise.

Just some thoughts,
CBODY67
 
Jay, have you had any ignition issues? I only ask because that coil seems awfully close to the exhaust manifold.

Not at all. The coil and manifold have inches of empty space between them, though it is not visible on that photo.

@Big_John

Yes, we are on the same page, though I explained it as lash instead of as slack.

@CBODY67

The cam, valves etc. are stock for a 67 440 (T code, I assume), which has been swapped to the 73 Imp by one of the previous owners, but I don't have exact numbers at hand. After revving the sound will not reappear even at the low RPM of idle speed.

@rkrochen

There is no visible wear on the parts, but I don´t know the oil pressure.
 
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Not at all. The coil and manifold have inches of empty space between them, though it is not visible on that photo.

@Big_John

Yes, we are on the same page.

@CBODY67

The cam, valves etc. are stock for a 67 440 (T code, I assume), which has been swapped to the 73 Imp by one of the previous owners, but I don't have exact numbers at hand. After revving the sound will not reappear even at the low RPM of idle speed.

@rkrochen

There is no visible wear on the parts, but I don´t know the oil pressure.
Did you physically take the shaft off and inspect at the point where the Rosiers touch the shaft. You won’t see it unless you do.
 
Did you physically take the shaft off and inspect at the point where the Rosiers touch the shaft. You won’t see it unless you do.

No, but I am able to do that this weekend.
 
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@CBODY67

The cam, valves etc. are stock for a 67 440 (T code, I assume), which has been swapped to the 73 Imp by one of the previous owners, but I don't have exact numbers at hand. After revving the sound will not reappear even at the low RPM of idle speed..

My concern was not for the particular numbers, but if it was all still stock or had been changed. Reason is that some of the earlier Comp Cams Hi-Energy cams, when installed, sounded more like mechanical cams than hydraulics, which they were. At least for about 10K miles or so. Due to their more aggressive lobe patterns.

But the issue of the noise decreasing/disappearing after the engine is revved a bit, is interesting. As if there's some restriction somewhere that initially limits oil pressure to a/all lifters, but when the rpm is increased (along with oil pressure), it "charges" things so the noise is gone. When, if one lifter is weak, then it would be weak all of the time at the lower/idle rpm level, not just before the engine is revved-up once.

But as long as things work and it is not missing, all is probably good. Please check the oil pressure, just for good measure to see where it might be.

Thanks,
CBODY67
 
This case is closed. The engine did not have enough oil, so ensuring the oil level was the solution for this problem.:BangHead:
 
so ensuring the oil level was the solution for this problem

Ahh... Grasshopper, you've just learned a valuable lesson in diagnostics. When you hear any engine noise, the first thing you do is pull the dipstick.
 
As the B/RB engine oils the cam/lifters FIRST, then you now know the audible indication of "no/low oil level". Chrysler did the oil system like that for an apparent reason!

The small block Chevy (which was the ONLY Chevy V-8 at the time), took the more "performance motor correct" orientation of oiling the crankshaft first, then the camshaft/valve train. Which can be done in a Chrysler B/RB with a little grinding effort (outlined in the Race Manuals).

Understand, too, that in the earlier 1950s, when Ford, GM divisions, Chrysler, and others were doing their new V-8s, the Chrysler Hemi was one of the first ones out. Cadillac, Olds, and other GM divisions were also in process. And for was moving to over-head valves. When the '55 Chevy V-8 hit the market, it was a quick and higher-revving engine which was lighter than the inline 6 it replaced and had more power. So it became the darling of the blue-collar hot rodders, while the Chrysler Hemi was still sought after for drag racers of the time.

Additionally, everybody was watching what everybody ELSE was doing. Kettering designed the original Cadillac V-8. So when Studebaker needed a V-8 to remain competitive in the middle '50s, they hired Kettering to create a V-8 for their cars, which is why earlier Studebaker V-8 look remarkably like a shrunken Cadillac V-8, except for the script name on the valve covers. The cam specs for the Slant 6 were similar to the Porsche flat-six engines (the benchmark of the time for 6 cyl engines) and I later discovered that the cam specs for a Ford 352/300 horsepower engine had some similarity to the Chevy 327/300 horsepower engine (valve lift and duration). As each engine program progressed, some of these earlier spec similarities tended to vanish, though, to gain their own more specific identity.

After being mentored by my machine shop operative, he'd laugh at how similar the Chrysler B/RB engine was compared to the small block Chevy. But after reading Smokey Yunick's book, it became apparent that what he wanted Chevy to change, Chrysler did it in the B/RB engine. Especially the distributor at the front! Plus the fact, as my guy pointed out, "old folks" could hear the ticking hydraulic lifters before they'd feel a "THUMP" in the floorboards, from low oil levels.

Back then, either "cheap" or "performance" engines had valve trains which needed periodic maintenance (valve lash adjustments) for best performance. Usually, the lash opened up, but on the VW flat 4s, the lash tightened up, which gave them that wheezing sound when they needed attention (and didn't get it on a regular basis).

The reason the Chevy V-8 became so popular was that is was short and narrow (so it'd go into almost EVERY narrow-frame-width chassis where an inline engine previously resided, plus with the distributor at the rear, it would fit under sloped front sheet metal that front distributor engines might not (they were planning for the yet-to-appear Corvette). The Chrysler Hemi of the time was a WIDE engine, which resulted in the restrictive exhaust manifold arrangement for it to fit the narrower frames of the earlier '50s cars it was initially placed into. The Chrysler "A" engine was more "normal", though, but was still a bit wider and heavier than the similar Chevy V-8, but with a stronger bottom end that made the Chevy casting look "weak" in comparison, even the later beloved 350 Chevy castings. The "Poly A" had its origins in original Hemi territory, which makes it a very durable design that probably was too over-shadowed by its big brother to have been fully appreciated for what it was.

As a consumer, would you rather hear valve train "ticks" or main bearing "THUNKS"? It's a known fact that as we age, lower frequency hearing decreases well before high frequency hearing does. So, for the general public, Chrysler probably did this one "right", considering that all "upscale" engines would have hydraulic valve lifters.

Enjoy!
CBODY67
 
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