Dodge 880 questions and performance

Mowerhoarder

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Hey! I'm new to this form and pretty new to the car world in general. I bought a 64' dodge 880 station wagon as my first car and daily driver. I was wondering what it even is (c body?) and where to get some better suspension parts/if a disc brake kit from a c body would work. I'm mostly looking for upper and lower control arms and a polyurethane bushing set to make it maybe not handle like a bowl of jello
 
Welcome aboard!

There was a thread in here, a few months back, about pre-1965 Chrysler Corp "full-size" platforms being part of the C-body family. Chrysler did not christen their full-size cars as "C"s until the 1965 model year, officially. In those prior times, there were the full-size, intermediate, and compact platforms. BTAIM

As to power disc brakes, there are several dynamics here. Most probably the car now has power drum brakes, but the power booster might not be adequate to run power disc brakes (which generally need more pressure to work well). One dynamic. The other dynamic is that without adding some complexity in sourcing components and such, Wilwood might be a better option. I usually like OEM-based conversions, but for some of the older vehicles, they might be the best alternative.

As to making the handling "firmer", polyurethane items might result in more road noise than is currently there. The lower control arm pivot (and front torsion bar mount area) is rubber, which can age and deform as the full weight of the front end rides there. New pivot bushings can be a prime candidate for replacement. No poly there that I know of. Might find some poly bushings for the upper control arm pivot bushings, though?

As I understand it, upgrading to the Borgeson steering gear (using a later-model Jeep gearbox?) can give the car a more modern steering feel and response. Which can also mean upgrading/replacing the "rag joint" and related items between the end of the steering column and the input side of the steering gear.

Lateral roll stiffness was more a function of the stiffness of the springs than sway bars, back then. There are some aftermarket front sway bars, but they look a bit flakey to me in how and where they mount. Helwig used to make rear sway bars for lots of vehicles, including Chrysler products back then. Might be able to adapt a '76 Cordoba rear sway bar, too.

THEN, complete the chassis with some good HD shocks (many in here like KYBs, but due to the way the front crossmember is designed, can be a bit harder to install (as to their internal gas pressure). A nice tire/wheel package is in that mix, too.

American VN-501 (Magnum 500 look-similars) in either 15x7 or 17x7 (which means "modern rubber" or some Hankook (or Nexen) 15" whitewalls (at about 32psi inflation pressure) can tie it all together nicely. Others might have some other wheels they might like better, which is fine.

Now, when the cars were new, their handling capabilities were better than anybody else offered at the time. The interesting thing is that a full-size station wagon, with the driver, is very close to 50-50 weight distribution as it sits. But as the chassis were more about ride comfort and safe, mild understeer at the limits, transient handling was not a real consideration back then. Yet the law enforcement-rated vehicles were the better ones of the bunch. Watch the chase scenes of "It's a Wild, Wild, Wild World" to see the Chrysler suspension dynamics from the earlier 1960s on display. The way those "then-new" cars handled on the old skinny-tread tires (at full cold inflation pressures) makes wonder what the 17x7 BFG "modern rubber" tires would do on them in more current times. Or even some normal 16" Michelin radials.

You've got a somewhat rare car which deserves the best care and feeding you can give it (not extravagantly so). Get it running and stopping as good as you can BEFORE doing anything to it. Polyurethane is not the "be all end all" some perceive it to be, by observation. There are a few vendors (P-S-T and ESPO Springs and Things) which have front end rebuild kits, as I recall. There are a few owners of these wagons which might have something to add, I suspect. Other than Borgeson, there are a few Chrysler-oriented steering gear rebuilders (as Steer and Gear), too. Which can rebuild your gear for a more "modern" or "high-effort" feel in it.

An unfortunate issue with older Chrysler product vehicles, other than B and A-body cars, is that some things will not be as easy to source in the parts area. Not a lot of "kits" per se, as modern cars tend to have available. Have to look for individual parts and pieces to make things work.

Take care,
CBODY67
 
Wow that's a lot of information! Thanks! I didn't attach a picture but the car is definitely rare with only 1600 or so made but also definitely a total pile. 59 years of Ohio salt and Ohio potholes haven't been kind to it at all and the fact it has a billion miles on it doesn't help much either (243,000) I'm not really worried about road noise as it's definitely not a luxury car anymore and I'd like it to handle a bit better at least. I think you're right with just doing a basic front end rebuild to factory spec. It's definitely getting tubular upper control arms as the ball joint is just welded into the control arm due to the threads being stripped. I think these would work for me Magnum Force Mopar C Body Bushed Tubular Upper Control Arms Dodge and Plymouth Chrysler, Fury, Hemi, Newport, New Yorker, Polara, Monaco, 300
 
Here's the current parts list I hope to put on,
1.18" x 47" C-body HD Street/Track (WR 280)
'65-'73 C-Body Tubular Upper Control Arms (Urethane Bushings)
I plan to get my steering box rebuilt by steer and gear cause they're right in town. I also want to rebuild the steering just for some extra piece of mind. I also was watching a video about these bars that mount to the front of the frame and keep the wheel straight. The guy was mentioning something about how they're mounted with rubber bushings and Jegs sells an all metal one for like $300 I can't remember what it was called though
 
Here's the current parts list I hope to put on,
1.18" x 47" C-body HD Street/Track (WR 280)
'65-'73 C-Body Tubular Upper Control Arms (Urethane Bushings)
I plan to get my steering box rebuilt by steer and gear cause they're right in town. I also want to rebuild the steering just for some extra piece of mind. I also was watching a video about these bars that mount to the front of the frame and keep the wheel straight. The guy was mentioning something about how they're mounted with rubber bushings and Jegs sells an all metal one for like $300 I can't remember what it was called though
Ummm... That stuff probably isn't going to work.

While I can't be 100% positive on the upper control arms, the torsion bars sure aren't going to. You bars are around 44" long and those replacements are 47" long... and yours mount differently with the adjuster in the rear rather than the front like the later cars.

Concerning the control arms, it's not unusual to see some spot welds holding the upper ball joints in place. In fact, in some shops, that was SOP for all cars to stop "come backs". The uppers don't wear like the bottoms so you may not need to replace them anyway.

In reading your post, I can see you are really enthusiastic about this car and that's great... Please realize, it's an old car... Never will handle/stop/steer like a newer car. The existing brakes are pretty good IF they are set up correctly and there's not a lot of advantage to disc brakes... In fact, after seeing most of the conversions, I'd say the stock drums are probably better. At least you won't have issues with figuring out why the GM master cylinder the kits use won't fit.

These cars can be a lot of fun... or they can be a pain in the ***. I think you are headed away from the fun part... Get it running and stopping etc. with stock stuff and go have some fun. (my opinion)
 
Damn! I'm fine with leaving the torsion bars I have in it right now but I definitely need upper control arms, stock or not as the one I have is pretty trashed. I put new ball joints in it and found the drivers side was stripped but decided to drive it home anyway because I really didn't care at that point and was far out of range of any u haul trailer. The ball joint came out of the control arm and the wheel was at a pretty weird angle. Got home and pulled the grease zerk and just smashed the ball joint into the control arm and welded it up. It's pretty sketchy but it's been working so far and no issues yet. I did destroy the rubber boot for the ball joint so it'll be trash in a few months probably, hence the need for a new arm and why I figured I'd upgrade to tubular arms. I do understand it won't drive like a new car and I don't want it to, just to handle better than it is, all the bushings are shot and the 1/2 turn of play in the steering (no joke) isn't helping any either. I'll post up some pics of it soon but it's definitely not a show car or even close to presentable, I like it that way though lol
 
Damn! I'm fine with leaving the torsion bars I have in it right now but I definitely need upper control arms, stock or not as the one I have is pretty trashed. I put new ball joints in it and found the drivers side was stripped but decided to drive it home anyway because I really didn't care at that point and was far out of range of any u haul trailer. The ball joint came out of the control arm and the wheel was at a pretty weird angle. Got home and pulled the grease zerk and just smashed the ball joint into the control arm and welded it up. It's pretty sketchy but it's been working so far and no issues yet. I did destroy the rubber boot for the ball joint so it'll be trash in a few months probably, hence the need for a new arm and why I figured I'd upgrade to tubular arms. I do understand it won't drive like a new car and I don't want it to, just to handle better than it is, all the bushings are shot and the 1/2 turn of play in the steering (no joke) isn't helping any either. I'll post up some pics of it soon but it's definitely not a show car or even close to presentable, I like it that way though lol
As I said, I don't know for sure on fitment for those control arms, but in the long run, you may be happier with just replacing the one control arm with a used replacement.

Is this a power or manual steering car? There are adjustments in the steering boxes that can help, but the first thing to look at is the tie rod ends.

Stuff like poly bushings are OK if everything else is good. Don't expect them to cure anything. They do tighten up how the control arms move, and again, that's OK, but not something where you'll see big (if any) improvements in how your car steers or handles. To get it to steer correctly, it really comes down to having the steering box, steering coupler (if there is one on your car) and tie rods in good shape first. That is what separates a good running and driving car from the rest. Personally, I don't care for poly bushings in a street car and don't think they have any advantage over the stock rubber.

I think you want to make this car handle like it should... To do that, you need to not pour your hard earned $$ into aftermarket stuff and concentrate on getting things right. Remember all the websites etc. are just there to sell you things that you often don't really need.
 
Find the loose parts on the front end/steering system and fix those. A wrong alignment can make a good car drive bad.
 
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Start looking for the idler arm now. Short supply and pricey. You may have to re-bush the one you have, probably will.

The big, fined drums from the 72 New Yorker rear will work on the front of your wagon hub. They fit in the 14-inch wheel. May have to turn them right out of the box. The shippers beat them up.

The 67 dual master works good with your drum brakes.

Complete front disc setup from many year Cordobas and Fifth Avenues and similar cars fit your car. 11 and 11.75 rotor. Get the proportioning valve.
 
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Firm Feel are the suspension gurus for Mopar. Give them a call or peruse their web site ahead of time. I have done many many suspension upgrades with Firm Feel suppling the goodies.
 
Many companies sell "tubular control arms" as a matter of normal business. One reason is the perceived orientation toward "high performance" and "high-caster" for improvements in the GM front suspension geometry. With the alleged orientation to "Make then drive more modern".

In a typical, pre-1977 GM suspension, when the car leans into a turn, the outside tire remains parallel to the chassis, so it leans with the car, which compromises the outside tire's cornering capabilities with the outside (think outside 1/2) of the tire doing all of the work. So, in this case, the high-caster tubular control arms make things "more Chrysler-like" in what they do.

In a typical Chrysler front end, since about 1955 or so, when the front wheels turn, the outside wheel goes into negative camber and the inner wheel goes into positive camber. Might not be as much as a Mercedes of 1970 Monte Carlo, but it happens. That way, the tires' sidewalls are better braced for higher cornering forces right off the bat, even on the old skinny wheels and tires back then. These "no cost to produce" things were incorporated into the Chrysler Torsion Bar Suspension introduced in 1957. That with firmer shocks helped make the TB suspensions legendary and the choice of people who liked to drive fast (and police departments to catch them). So what Chryslers have had for decades is what the tubular control arm sellers are seeking to emulate, by observation. Murray Park is in your region and could well have a set of normal upper control arms you can buy, rebuild, and install. Polyurethane bushings if you want to go that route in the rebuild. Maybe even some older-vehicle salvage yards, too?

If you didn't attend the recent Mopar Nationals, put that on your schedule for next year. Always the 2nd weekend in August. It's worth the effort to get there. Go early to spend the day. Many of the main Mopar vendors will be there, plus everybody else. Therefore, you can look at things "in the metal" rather than a picture on a website.

Enjoy!
CBODY67
 
Iam partial to 64, s for some reason. :D

DSC02213.jpg
 
EDIT - I loaded this thread earlier today, figuring I should post some info. I would've been post 5.
I came back and typed the stuff below without refreshing the page, so some of what I typed is a duplicate of other folks comments.

as my first car and daily driver.
I remember some good advice from an older guy years ago - don't fool with your daily driver, get a DD you don't have to fool with. Then work on the classic car.

Hey! I'm new to this form and pretty new to the car world in general.

For a first car - don't jump right in whole-hog. Develop a plan of repairs, a budget for it, and be realistic about your skills and results. Figure out where the big expenses are, which ones are worthwhile and which ones should be done at less expense. i.e. don't buy a $1200 set of 17" wheels if you can't afford the tires - find a decent set of used 15" wheels/tires on Facebook instead?

I wouldn't bother with the tubular A-arms. At $500, that's money better spent elsewhere. As your UBJs are welded in, that likely means they were replaced. Are they still in good condition?
I once rebuilt a front susp on my first car because I was 'doing things right' and the mechanic guy that was helping me told me most of the parts I was replacing didn't need replaced. But I did it all anyway. (21 years old at that time)

For the torsion bars - find out if those bars fit a 64. As @CBODY67 said, your car technically isn't a C-body. 1.18" bars might be a bit stiff, I have 1.12x44" on one of my cars and love them but I wouldn't want it any stiffer. FirmFeel is listing the same WR number (wheel rate, I presume) between 44" and 47", and that's mathematically impossible. Of same diameter, a longer bar has less spring rate than a shorter one. Maybe that 3" doesn't make much difference and they want to keep things simpler for customers?

For disk brake conversions, I read recently that later B-body parts (IIRC) work on some of the 64-older cars. Search on here for that info.

Try Murray Park in Tiffin, OH for used parts. Maybe visit him, he's within driving distance to you.


For wheels, here's a huge thread with lots of pics for inspirations. Use the 'export' feature to put it all into 1 webpage. It might fail, or might take 10 min to fully load. But makes for easier scrolling instead of going thru 160+ pages loading all the ads and BS on the perimeter.
C-Body Wheel and Tire Survey


Here's another wheel thread:
Exactly What Wheels & Tires Fit C Bodies?
1695692216431.png


I also was watching a video about these bars that mount to the front of the frame and keep the wheel straight. The guy was mentioning something about how they're mounted with rubber bushings and Jegs sells an all metal one for like $300 I can't remember what it was called though

That might be the strut rods, they go from the LCA near the wheel to under the radiator, and help control the LCA during braking. There is a bushing at the front (2 actually, sandwiched on both side of the structure there). B-body bushings will interchange with C-body in this location, so polyurethane bushings are an option. For any location where you use poly bushigns, make sure to lube them with silicone grease to prevent squeaks.
 
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Ok, I think I'm going to go with a stock rebuild and some heavier duty shocks, hopefully I can find a control arm (drivers side if anybody's holding). Definitely going to go with poly bushings for the strut rods, and definitely gonna get the steering box rebuilt by steer and gear. The rest is just engine performance stuff and some transmission questions, mostly what overdrive transmission will bolt on (if any) and what hp boost I could expect from a 4 barrel intake and carb
 
What's your engine size? 361 or 383? Adding a 4-barrel might add 20hp.
What's your budget?
Overdrive trans has lots of options, none are direct bolt-in, any of them will cost thousands. Search on here and you'll find recent threads.
Adding overdrive isn't worthwhile unless you re-gear the axle to 3.55 or higher. So there's that expense also. I don't know if the '64-older tapered-shaft rearends can take the much-more-common 65-up gearsets.

If wanting to think outside the box, a 5.9 Magnum with 518RH overdrive might be an effective upgrade, as it will have as much performance as the stock 361 or 383 and the OD bolts right on.
Offset the expense of adapting the overdrive to the bigblock into purchase of a more efficient/lighter engine.
But even if you do that - $$$$
 
It's a 361, I did see some website had a bolt on overdrive unit that was like $2,000 or so, just remove the tailshaft housing, install theirs and bolt the unit on. I might go that route honestly, easier to not have to mess with the pushbutton setup too

This thing
Dodge 3-Speed Auto - Gearvendors
 
It's a 361, I did see some website had a bolt on overdrive unit that was like $2,000 or so, just remove the tailshaft housing, install theirs and bolt the unit on. I might go that route honestly, easier to not have to mess with the pushbutton setup too

This thing
Dodge 3-Speed Auto - Gearvendors
Your trans has a rear pump in the tailshaft so those aren't going to work.

1965 and earlier aluminum torqueflites have the rear pump, along with the cable shift.

One thing you'll find is when they say "fits Mopars" is they often don't count the pre-1965 cars.... For about anything...
 
Several things 1) The name of the movie was "it's a Mad, Mad, Mad World." 2) I am old enough to remember these pre- 65 Mopars. If driven reasonably sanely (which most people do anyway) they were utterly reliable and great handling cars in stock form. For the observant members among you, my picture is of the 64 Imperial I owned for over 20 years. No matter how long it sat - just put a battery to it and it started. It handled extremely well and its huge drum brake set up with vented wheels stopped this 5100 lb car with ease. What I am saying is why not just set up the suspension to stock (wagons were always more HD than other body styles) redo the brakes, go through the cooling system, add new shocks and just enjoy the vehicle the way it was intended. It is not a race car or some stupid modern car that is designed to run a race course It is an American cruiser.
 
Welcome aboard!

There was a thread in here, a few months back, about pre-1965 Chrysler Corp "full-size" platforms being part of the C-body family. Chrysler did not christen their full-size cars as "C"s until the 1965 model year, officially. In those prior times, there were the full-size, intermediate, and compact platforms. BTAIM

As to power disc brakes, there are several dynamics here. Most probably the car now has power drum brakes, but the power booster might not be adequate to run power disc brakes (which generally need more pressure to work well). One dynamic. The other dynamic is that without adding some complexity in sourcing components and such, Wilwood might be a better option. I usually like OEM-based conversions, but for some of the older vehicles, they might be the best alternative.

As to making the handling "firmer", polyurethane items might result in more road noise than is currently there. The lower control arm pivot (and front torsion bar mount area) is rubber, which can age and deform as the full weight of the front end rides there. New pivot bushings can be a prime candidate for replacement. No poly there that I know of. Might find some poly bushings for the upper control arm pivot bushings, though?

As I understand it, upgrading to the Borgeson steering gear (using a later-model Jeep gearbox?) can give the car a more modern steering feel and response. Which can also mean upgrading/replacing the "rag joint" and related items between the end of the steering column and the input side of the steering gear.

Lateral roll stiffness was more a function of the stiffness of the springs than sway bars, back then. There are some aftermarket front sway bars, but they look a bit flakey to me in how and where they mount. Helwig used to make rear sway bars for lots of vehicles, including Chrysler products back then. Might be able to adapt a '76 Cordoba rear sway bar, too.

THEN, complete the chassis with some good HD shocks (many in here like KYBs, but due to the way the front crossmember is designed, can be a bit harder to install (as to their internal gas pressure). A nice tire/wheel package is in that mix, too.

American VN-501 (Magnum 500 look-similars) in either 15x7 or 17x7 (which means "modern rubber" or some Hankook (or Nexen) 15" whitewalls (at about 32psi inflation pressure) can tie it all together nicely. Others might have some other wheels they might like better, which is fine.

Now, when the cars were new, their handling capabilities were better than anybody else offered at the time. The interesting thing is that a full-size station wagon, with the driver, is very close to 50-50 weight distribution as it sits. But as the chassis were more about ride comfort and safe, mild understeer at the limits, transient handling was not a real consideration back then. Yet the law enforcement-rated vehicles were the better ones of the bunch. Watch the chase scenes of "It's a Wild, Wild, Wild World" to see the Chrysler suspension dynamics from the earlier 1960s on display. The way those "then-new" cars handled on the old skinny-tread tires (at full cold inflation pressures) makes wonder what the 17x7 BFG "modern rubber" tires would do on them in more current times. Or even some normal 16" Michelin radials.

You've got a somewhat rare car which deserves the best care and feeding you can give it (not extravagantly so). Get it running and stopping as good as you can BEFORE doing anything to it. Polyurethane is not the "be all end all" some perceive it to be, by observation. There are a few vendors (P-S-T and ESPO Springs and Things) which have front end rebuild kits, as I recall. There are a few owners of these wagons which might have something to add, I suspect. Other than Borgeson, there are a few Chrysler-oriented steering gear rebuilders (as Steer and Gear), too. Which can rebuild your gear for a more "modern" or "high-effort" feel in it.

An unfortunate issue with older Chrysler product vehicles, other than B and A-body cars, is that some things will not be as easy to source in the parts area. Not a lot of "kits" per se, as modern cars tend to have available. Have to look for individual parts and pieces to make things work.

Take care,
CBODY67
i was told putting a 6 cylinder ps pump app 800lb over stock 1200 unit would improve road feel if so how would i id a 6cyl pump at swap meet or junk yard pile of pumps
 
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