If you have never seen one or the other, there is one of each at the Castle Air Museum in Atwater, CA. As well *** a B-36, B-50, B-29, B-24, B-17, SR71, and many others. Worth the time!
Castle Air Museum | Atwater, California
Heavy Metal
- Thread starter amazinblue82
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Castle Air Museum | Atwater, California
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It's great. I acted as docent to a group of Pastors as were returning from a meeting in Modesto. I could do that in retirement!
My funniest memory is when I was there with my two children when they were in Elementary School. On the other side of a cyclone fence was the B-36, fully disassembled. While we were looking at the parts another family with young children came walking up. One kid said, "What's that Daddy?" When he said it looked like two planes I corrected him, and told him it was one, a B-36, the largest production Bomber ever built. He told me I was nuts and said, "Look there's 6 engines here and two sets of jet engines!" I told him yes, 6 4360s in pusher configuration and 4 jets used in takeoff. He turned to his family and said, "Don't listen to that guy kids, he's nuts." Ha!!
Today, if you contact the museum, you can get a tour inside the Peacekeeper, as well as all the other planes there. Great place!
My funniest memory is when I was there with my two children when they were in Elementary School. On the other side of a cyclone fence was the B-36, fully disassembled. While we were looking at the parts another family with young children came walking up. One kid said, "What's that Daddy?" When he said it looked like two planes I corrected him, and told him it was one, a B-36, the largest production Bomber ever built. He told me I was nuts and said, "Look there's 6 engines here and two sets of jet engines!" I told him yes, 6 4360s in pusher configuration and 4 jets used in takeoff. He turned to his family and said, "Don't listen to that guy kids, he's nuts." Ha!!
Today, if you contact the museum, you can get a tour inside the Peacekeeper, as well as all the other planes there. Great place!
67newport
Old Man with a Hat
1927 - A fender stamping press at the Ford Motor Company River Rouge plant, Dearborn, Michigan
67newport
Old Man with a Hat
The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down...
I think this is near/on the Old Channel (around Zug Island) of the Rouge River in Detroit.
I was taken there in the late 1960's BEFORE we moved to Detroit by a relative. Never been there again in nearly 50 years .. and all the folks who would know for sure have passed away.
You were literally a few yards away from the ore carriers going to the steel plants that supplied Ford Rouge complex.
I guess much like pre-9/11 you could park about 100 yards from the end of one of major runways at Detroit Metro Airport, I dont see how it would be done today
But back when this photo was taken I am sure it was possible -- you could walk out there and touch them. Might have even been ON Zug Island proper back then. Dunno.
Any of you downriver natives of Detroit area have any ideas where the Edmund Fitzgerald is parked?
The "Old Channel" (red outline) was man-made .. to connect the Detroit River to the Rouge River so the ore boats could off-load ore to supply Ford's Rouge Complex with steel (the old National Steel Company was on Zug Island).
same spot with some identifiers.
While reminded how hard Great Lakes' "Gales of November" are on boats, I stumbled on on wreck, nearly 100 years ago, I never heard of. On Superior too .. November 1926.
sources: City of Bangor Shipwreck, Shipwreck of the City of Bangor, Eagle Harbor, Lake Superior,Upper Peninsula of Michigan, Wreck of the ship "City of Bangor" | DPL DAMS
Freighter City of Bangor built 1896, ran aground in a storm off Keweenaw Peninsula in Lake Superior. 450 feet long, 45 feet wide, and steam driven, she was an ore carrier converted to a car carrier.
Loaded on one of her first trips as a car carrier with almost 250 brand new Chryslers going from Detroit to Duluth when the "Witch of November" got her.
Ship beached, iced-over, and taking on water, they hacked (with axes) out the remaining above deck cars and drove them off the boat, scrambled to do same with cars in the hold, declared ship a total loss, scrapped it in place to the waterline, and to this day the rest is an artificial reef for scuba diving.
Saved all 29 men and about 200 plus (there's debate over how many were on the boat in the first place) of the Chryslers. 18 of the Chryslers that were on deck are on the bottom of Lake Superior.
The saved cars went by rail back to Detroit from Calumet by train and resold (color pic is alleged to be one .. who knows).
sources: City of Bangor Shipwreck, Shipwreck of the City of Bangor, Eagle Harbor, Lake Superior,Upper Peninsula of Michigan, Wreck of the ship "City of Bangor" | DPL DAMS
Freighter City of Bangor built 1896, ran aground in a storm off Keweenaw Peninsula in Lake Superior. 450 feet long, 45 feet wide, and steam driven, she was an ore carrier converted to a car carrier.
Loaded on one of her first trips as a car carrier with almost 250 brand new Chryslers going from Detroit to Duluth when the "Witch of November" got her.
Ship beached, iced-over, and taking on water, they hacked (with axes) out the remaining above deck cars and drove them off the boat, scrambled to do same with cars in the hold, declared ship a total loss, scrapped it in place to the waterline, and to this day the rest is an artificial reef for scuba diving.
Saved all 29 men and about 200 plus (there's debate over how many were on the boat in the first place) of the Chryslers. 18 of the Chryslers that were on deck are on the bottom of Lake Superior.
The saved cars went by rail back to Detroit from Calumet by train and resold (color pic is alleged to be one .. who knows).
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67newport
Old Man with a Hat
city of bangor starts at around 11:50
SGT FURY
Senior Member
Intentional beaching of large ships for ship breaking purposes.
SGT FURY
Senior Member
I could watch these all day
SGT FURY
Senior Member
Search- (ship breaking India,Pakistan)
There are many videos on this subject.
I’m fascinated and horrified by these videos.
America puts all these limits and
regulations on what we do here and this is what goes on in the rest of the world?!?
We’re worried about gas ovens.
https://www.google.com/search?clien...#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:2ecd4165,vid:afwaPzo2ei4
There are many videos on this subject.
I’m fascinated and horrified by these videos.
America puts all these limits and
regulations on what we do here and this is what goes on in the rest of the world?!?
We’re worried about gas ovens.
https://www.google.com/search?clien...#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:2ecd4165,vid:afwaPzo2ei4
subject for the politics forum. Geo-politics and socio-economics of labor inputs in "developed" vs. "developing" nations in the 21st century.
i like the information cuz i learned something about economics & recyling. Not other reasonable way to run the shipping industry .. cut up and recycle the obsolete technologies.
but this is brutal work ... that is bad and i aint diggin' that. no hard hats, no shoes, dollar store sunglasses for welding goggles-maybe, 110 degrees, no shade, with 90% humidity, 70 hrs/week. for two USD/day? Sh*t work.
OTOH, its either this kinda work, or these folks and their families don't eat. damn.
like you said. fascinating yet horrifying. like a two-headed farm animal. turns your stomach but you cant look away.
now, back to some regularly scheduled "Heavy Metal".
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D Cluley
Active Member
Not sure where the Fitzgerald picture was taken, but just to clarify. The red outline is the original course of the Rouge River. The short section across the south end of the island (bottom of the pics) is the man-made canal that made it easier to get freighters from in and out of the Rouge.
It you have 30 mins. to kill, a video-only (no narration) of some "how its made" snippets.
I've never understood the salvaging of some of these ships. They are all in working order or they couldn't beach themselves. Some look GREAT! So why? Surplus, obsolete, nobody willing to purchase a running ship? Why?
I understand those desiring to cut them up for money, I just don't get the why they would be available?
I understand those desiring to cut them up for money, I just don't get the why they would be available?
this article is one of dozens and has a bunch of references.
What is ship recycling?.
My $0.03 pedestrian understanding goes like this.
The economics of the industry are well-defined .. its one of the oldest transportation systems in human history.
These folks building and running ships know the economics of everything they operate/make .. to the penny!
Things keep changing on them (environmental, fuel costs, new technologies, taxation, creative financing/government incentives, cost of new builds, labor costs, scrap prices, breaking costs, etc.) and the mashup of those things materially affect the economics.
Builders design them for a life of 30-50 years. absent a catastrophe requiring salvage, most will last that long.
After 30-50 years, they are still running at the end of that time. However, they are no longer competitive with newer ships even though they are running fine.
I too saw those perfectly good looking boats beaching themselves. But rather that tow one to Bangladesh from wherever, its surely cost less for it to be able to sail to scrapyard under its own power.
My thoughts were the same as yours maybe .
"Hey, that boat looks fine." Among the things we don't know about those, is "how old are those boats? A 50 year old boat can still "look" good. But it could be full of asbestos, more paint on it hull then metal, gets 1/4 the fuel economy of new designs, etc.
I havent seen the "business case" for scrapping. something like NEW boats cost to acquire, what they cost to operate turned into their profitability, compared the OLDER boats' numbers.
If the new vs. the old creates a positive business case FOR new, then the old ones go and the the new ones get built/bought.
My assumption is the industry is making rational decisions .. and good looking OLD boats get scrapped -- just like they have for 1,000 years -- and their parts turned into NEW boats.
Maybe somebody IN this industry "value chain" wants to add on? Love a better informed/more knowledgeable "Heavy Metal" perspective.
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SGT FURY
Senior Member
The cruise ship industry was hit pretty hard by Covid.
Many older luxury cruise liners were sent in for scrap.
Everything is salvaged beds,kitchens,fixtures etc.
How $300 million Carnival cruise ships are demolished in Turkey
Many older luxury cruise liners were sent in for scrap.
Everything is salvaged beds,kitchens,fixtures etc.
How $300 million Carnival cruise ships are demolished in Turkey
My last one on topic ship-breaking: Shipbreaking, 40+years Old Cruise Ships List | CruiseMapper. Explains a lot.
These boats - cruise ships - below are 40 years old. Beached themselves and got cut up.
This container ships below, was about same age as the cruise ships above. But they had to go.
Excerpts from the link at the top. "Follow the money" and you find out why most things are the way they are, and why people are "willing" to do this work.
"There are four major economic benefits of breaking ships for scrap and recycling that have made the breaking of ships a powerful industry:
The Asian yards dominate the industry of ship breaking and scrapping, India, China, and Bangladesh being the world's undisputed leaders in this business:
Of all the world's 45,000+ ocean ships about 1,6% are scrapped every year. About 95% of the mass of a ship can be reused.
Ship recycling industry supplies more than 40% of the world's raw material needs - appr 1,6 million people are engaged in this business, generating 600+ million tons of recyclables every year with annual revenue of US$200+ billion."
These boats - cruise ships - below are 40 years old. Beached themselves and got cut up.
This container ships below, was about same age as the cruise ships above. But they had to go.
Excerpts from the link at the top. "Follow the money" and you find out why most things are the way they are, and why people are "willing" to do this work.
"There are four major economic benefits of breaking ships for scrap and recycling that have made the breaking of ships a powerful industry:
- Steel production - the scrapping of the ship is the country's main source of steel, it reduces the need to import steel materials, thus saving huge amounts of money.
- A "green industry" - the ship breaking scrap signifies reusing and recycling of almost everything on the vessel and the vessel itself, providing raw materials to the steel industry, asbestos for re-manufacturing factories, even furniture, electrical and electronic equipment, lubricants, oil, etc.
- The ship recycling industry generates large Government tax revenues mainly through import duties and the yards tax.
- it provides employment for some of the poorest people of the world, who would otherwise have no employment at all.
The Asian yards dominate the industry of ship breaking and scrapping, India, China, and Bangladesh being the world's undisputed leaders in this business:
- India - 48%
- China - 21%
- Bangladesh - 19%
- Pakistan - 10%
- Others - 2%
Of all the world's 45,000+ ocean ships about 1,6% are scrapped every year. About 95% of the mass of a ship can be reused.
Ship recycling industry supplies more than 40% of the world's raw material needs - appr 1,6 million people are engaged in this business, generating 600+ million tons of recyclables every year with annual revenue of US$200+ billion."
Right in my backyard. Been fascinated with this topic ever since we moved to Michigan. Great Lakes have claimed 6,000 boats and 30,000 people over the past 500 years.
17 years before Edmund Fitzgerald was lost, the "Queen of the Lakes" went down in 1958.
sources: 10 Great Lakes Shipwrecks, SS Carl D. Bradley - Wikipedia, Looking Back: Carl D. Bradley was wrecked in storm 60 years ago,
Great Lakes -- Carl D. Bradley, Lake Michigan
The Carl D. Bradley, built 1927 in Lorain, OH, steam turbine propulsion, 640 ft long, 66 feet wide. Biggest GL freighter for 22 years.
Sank 1958, victim of the Witch of November. Broke in half in the storm and sank.
Almost all hands lost. Looks like poor construction and bad driving contributed. Found the following year, sitting upright on the bottom.
"Carl D. Bradley, a Great Lakes freighter, was built in 1927 and was popular as the “Queen of the Lakes” as it was the longest and largest freighter on the waters of the Great Lakes during its period.
She was built by American Shipbuilding based out of Ohio.
This self-unloading freighter was operated by Bradley Transportation and was used as both an icebreaker and a freighter. In 1957, she collided with another vessel, the MV White Rose, resulting in damage to her hull.
The following year, the vessel ran aground multiple times, but these occurrences were never reported to the authorities. She was caught in a storm in November of the same year and sank in Lake Michigan, killing 33 of the 35 crew members.
The vessel’s sinking was caused by structural damage resulting from the poor choice of steel used in her construction. The wreck of Carl D. Bradley, laying 360 feet under the water, was discovered in 1959 by the Army Corps of Engineers."
Found in 1959, sitting in 370 feet of water (artist conceptions -- its dark down there).
American Shipbuilding (near Cleveland OH). Acquired by a George Steinbrenner (NY Yankee owner) company in early 1980s. Closed in 1995.
Still a neat area in downtown Cleveland OH. One of the old buildings, now called the Shipyards, is still there (Green Arrows in 1950 and Today), on HarborWalk.
sources: History — The Shipyards, American Ship Building Company - Wikipedia, Home — The Shipyards
17 years before Edmund Fitzgerald was lost, the "Queen of the Lakes" went down in 1958.
sources: 10 Great Lakes Shipwrecks, SS Carl D. Bradley - Wikipedia, Looking Back: Carl D. Bradley was wrecked in storm 60 years ago,
Great Lakes -- Carl D. Bradley, Lake Michigan
The Carl D. Bradley, built 1927 in Lorain, OH, steam turbine propulsion, 640 ft long, 66 feet wide. Biggest GL freighter for 22 years.
Sank 1958, victim of the Witch of November. Broke in half in the storm and sank.
Almost all hands lost. Looks like poor construction and bad driving contributed. Found the following year, sitting upright on the bottom.
"Carl D. Bradley, a Great Lakes freighter, was built in 1927 and was popular as the “Queen of the Lakes” as it was the longest and largest freighter on the waters of the Great Lakes during its period.
She was built by American Shipbuilding based out of Ohio.
This self-unloading freighter was operated by Bradley Transportation and was used as both an icebreaker and a freighter. In 1957, she collided with another vessel, the MV White Rose, resulting in damage to her hull.
The following year, the vessel ran aground multiple times, but these occurrences were never reported to the authorities. She was caught in a storm in November of the same year and sank in Lake Michigan, killing 33 of the 35 crew members.
The vessel’s sinking was caused by structural damage resulting from the poor choice of steel used in her construction. The wreck of Carl D. Bradley, laying 360 feet under the water, was discovered in 1959 by the Army Corps of Engineers."
Found in 1959, sitting in 370 feet of water (artist conceptions -- its dark down there).
American Shipbuilding (near Cleveland OH). Acquired by a George Steinbrenner (NY Yankee owner) company in early 1980s. Closed in 1995.
Still a neat area in downtown Cleveland OH. One of the old buildings, now called the Shipyards, is still there (Green Arrows in 1950 and Today), on HarborWalk.
sources: History — The Shipyards, American Ship Building Company - Wikipedia, Home — The Shipyards
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