Numbers matching questions....

[GBsPanhead]

I know 'numbers matching' can/does mean different things to different people. On my '69 300 vert, the VIN, motor and tranny all match. So on a base level, I have a numbers matching '69.

But to go deeper, how would I tell if I have the original carb? Date code/stamp somewhere on carb? How about the rear end? And any other parts that have some type of markings that indicate the part(s) are original to the rest of the car? Thanks!!

 

[70NEWYORKER]

Do your research as though you owned one of the little cars (B or E body). Google should turn up a lot.

 

[GBsPanhead]

Do your research as though you owned one of the little cars (B or E body). Google should turn up a lot.

That's what I've been doing, a lot info on B body site. Thanks!

 

[LocuMob]

Do your research as though you owned one of the little cars (B or E body). Google should turn up a lot.

And get a parts book that lists all available options.

Carb should have a number stamped on the front of the flange if a Carter and the air horn of a Holley. Rear end might still have a tag for the ratio, and a tag if a sure grip.

 

[CBODY67]

When the whole issue of vehicle value started to intensify, in the middle '70s (as in with Corvettes and Camaro Z/28s), the fact the car had its original engine meant the car had probably seen a "normal" life, rather than one where it had been "used" for its designed purposes (i.e., high perf intents). It didn't necessarily mean that the engine hadn't been rebuilt, just that it had the original block. BUT if the block was ever "performance built" and had been "decked", that "DZ" Camaro Z/28 302 block became just "another Chevy 4" bore block" as the decking would remove the desired OEM assembly stamps from the pad they were stamped into. But when that would have been done, nobody was worrying about those numbers as they did in later years. Similarly, the cars were just "used cars" rather than "collectible investments".

The next verification stamping would be the date code on the Chevy block, to see IF it could have been the original block or a replacement.

Even if the block was orig, it could have been rebuilt with a different cam or other internal items. Similar with an automatic trans that had been "shift-kitted" or otherwise modified from OEM production specs. Or a rear axle assy.

As things progressed and "numbers match" orientations expanded to non-muscle car vehicles, it CAN be an indication of how much the vehicle might have been "messed with" by prior owners. And Why, for whatever reason, they felt the need to do so. Those changes (and possible related intents) can be a variable influencer as to ultimate transaction price, depending upon what the later owners might desire themselves.

BUT the whole "numbers match" situation might not be a complete indicator of if the vehicle had been "messed with" in other areas . . . like owner-performed wiring changes, larger fuel lines, and such. Changes that some observers might miss, but those who knew what they were looking at would certainly notice.

Every major component of the engine/vehicle has some ID marking/paint stamp on it, usually. Many times, the FSM AND factory parts book will detail where these things are located on the respective component/assemblies. These things would have been added as the final "birth certificate" of the component at ITS final point of assembly, well prior to the vehicle assembly plant installation point.

Still, determining if the carb is original to a vehicle, for example, CAN be important in taking care of things. Similarly to determine if the distributor is orig to the vehicle, too! AND to getting the car to perform as it should for driving and possible exhaust emissions checks. But again, the outside ID can be important, but if the "guts" have been altered, it's not completely "stock, as produced" (although we might suspect they are). Always good to originally suspect things are as they should be, even when later inspection might indicate otherwise.

How much might have been changed can be an indicator of the vehicle's/component's prior life uses. Usually, when one thing was altered, others were altered too, by observation. A bigger carb might also result in an aftermarket intake manifold, different ignition items, and related items. Plus some trans upgrades (at least a shift kit), too. Then once you start looking for these things, you don't stop until you get past the back bumper and then retrace your steps back toward the front bumper to see if you might have missed anything, for good measure. Making a written/visual record of what is found.

With C-body Chrysler products (and similar vehicles of Ford and GM manufacture), it's not really so much about ultimate "auction value", it's more about knowing what has been or might be purchased. AND what information might be passed onto possible future owners! PLUS that what people are looking at is a valid OEM-produced "example of the breed" rather than something which has been "prior owner upgraded/changed", which can be very important in some cases. Possibly more so on the B/E/A-body cars than on C-body cars.

When I bought my DH43N0D back in 1975, just looking at it would determine that "all was what it needed to be", as there generally were no reasons for prior owners to change anything. The car did have "helper shocks" on the rear, plus a dealership repair order noted an additional labor charge for the removal of a trailer hitch, so things of that nature were more important than whether the engine had been changed, for example. BUT if I had bought a used '70 Challenger R/T or such, an engine block change might have been more prevalent/possible, so knowing that would have been a reason for a "more reasonable" purchase price as the vehicle had obviously been "used", for what it's worth.

ALL of this being mentioned, cosmetic condition still rules the day on vehicle re-sale/collectible value. Especially when "rust repairs" are needed. Although orig paint can be important, with some people (who've grown up with basecoat/clearcoat paints and consider such as "normal" even on earlier-vintage vehicles produced well prior to the bc/cc paint OEM uses!!!) might like the later shine rather than what the cars originally came with. But rust would still mean the car might need a repaint when the repair was done, which WOULD ultimately affect its value more than having the correct carb on the engine, for example.

In such a case, depending upon what the vehicle might be, a "numbers matching" situation could determine if the car is repaired or not. OR, in the case of a muscle-car B/E/A-body car, would be better used as a drag race car instead of a road-going passenger car instead . . . or anywhere in-between.

My machine shop operative had a '68 Camaro race car for many years. A very solid, non-rusted body. Not an SS or Z/28, but just a normal Camaro V-8 car. When I saw it, it had a full roll cage, custom-built (from u-bends) headers on the small block Chevy V-8. It was still a very solid car that could have been "de-raced" by a later owner who sought to restore a "solid-body" car, if they wanted to. But like many others like it, once the roll cage was welded in, that sealed it's fate as a racing vehicle.

In any event, an owner (current/new/prior) knowing what they've got and will be dealing with can be important, regardless of any ultimate value increase due to "numbers matching", regardless of the make or model.

CBODY67

 

[68 4spd Fury]

The carb should have a tag on it and can be referenced by the parts list.

 

[GBsPanhead]

Thanks everyone!! Great info!!

 

[PontiacJim]

I know 'numbers matching' can/does mean different things to different people. On my '69 300 vert, the VIN, motor and tranny all match. So on a base level, I have a numbers matching '69.

But to go deeper, how would I tell if I have the original carb? Date code/stamp somewhere on carb? How about the rear end? And any other parts that have some type of markings that indicate the part(s) are original to the rest of the car? Thanks!!

Original or numbers matching as you point out means different things to different people. In some cases, matching numbers means very little to a cars value while other times it does. Who cares about a number matching 1965 Rambler 4-door? But a numbers matching Hemi 'Cuda is a big deal. It boils down to the rarity, collectability, and demand of the car and current market pricing.

Those cars deemed collectable with the lowest original unrestored miles, garage kept, not having parts replaced, still owned by the original owner, having its original documentation from the day of the sale from the dealer, and other related materials will pull the highest values - and very few cars fall under this heading.

The next class of cars which on another forum we call "Day 2" cars are those that are mostly original, but enjoyed and driven - which many cars fall into this category. It is mostly original, meaning a numbers matching engine/transmission/rear end. Parts may have been changed out to keep the car running as the case with most cars. They did not have collector value like they do now, so parts got replaced or swapped and you tossed out the original. Might include hoses, radiator, carb, exhaust manifolds, distributors, Alt., starters, etc.. These cars are original, and show all the signs of wear you would expect from a car that is driven and kept running after all these years.

Then its a free for all from that point on as to what the seller and buyer perceive as meeting their requirements as to what is original, what is not, what has been modified/replaced, and if it has been refurbed or restored.

For some, original is not key and can yield a higher return than original. The 1965 Rambler with a blown Hemi will pull a bigger return than the same car with an original numbers matching 6-cylinder. This kind of car would be of interest to the "Dare-to-be-Different" crowd and would probably sell at a much greater profit than if it had been original. You see this in many of the car build shows on TV, it is all about making a profit and doing it in a way that they can entice a buyer.

With the aftermarket industry, many of the cars seen at car shows are "Clones," "Tribute Cars," or "Recreations" (the newest buzz word) of an original model muscle car. Lemans & Tempest become GTO's and you would think that every GTO produced from 1964-'66 was a 4-speed tri-power car. Malibu and Chevelle base cars become SS cars. The 318 Mopars become big block or Hemi RT models. Mustangs all have the hi-po 289's or resemble the "Bullet" or "Eleanor" cars. Then of course there are the steel bodies you can buy and then build from the ground up suited up any way you want. These cars are not original, but they still command high selling prices because buyers are willing to pay "less" to have a clone than what they can afford in buying an original.

The condition of the body prior to a rebuild or restoration can for some be key. Original means that, all the panels are original to the car with correct date stamp codes and part numbers while others could care less if the entire car has been re-skinned from a rusted away hulk sitting in a field for the past 40 years which may not hurt value with some cars when it comes to a 1 of 2 type car or if the rest of the car is low mileage and still original number matching if a muscle car. Fewer and fewer cars have their original panels as rust and rot gets to them. So how many can actually claim that they are original anymore?

The trend now with regards to many GM cars is to slap in a late model LS engine in place of its original powerplant. That's what the younger generation want. So more and more original muscle cars are getting the transplant. It does not seem to hurt value and may actually increase it BECAUSE there are younger buys just looking for that kind of a swap. Other upgrades are the 16-17-18" rims & tires, 5-speed and OD automatics, coil over and tubular A-arm suspensions, disc brakes, stereo upgrades, and other personal touches. Essentially, the original flavor of the body/name is kept, but everything under the skin is changed to "upgrade" the car to 21st century driving pleasures - because this generation is not mechanically inclined nor care to get dirty rebuilding a carb, tuning an engine, installing ball joints, doing a brake job, or anything else. With the modern upgrades, you can get serviceable parts and most current auto shops can repair & fix them.

So original numbers matching cars will matter less and less as time goes on. It may matter to select low production cars that are ultimately museum pieces or trailer queens that go on display at assorted venues and compete for trophies. This latest generation is looking for that nostalgic romanticism which the car's nameplate symbolizes and has conjured up within the car culture community. Except, they also want the car to perform, handle, have interior comfort, and electronics like today's modern cars.

I say don't get hooked on original matching numbers car if you plan to enjoy and drive it. It may be of help for insurance appraisals, but it really is not that important in the overall scheme of things. It can of course be helpful in rebuilding some assemblies like the carb, but it can also be cheaper and more cost effective to simply replace old with new and be done with it.