Scenicruisin'..?

[amazinblue82]

Here's a 1950 Flxible Clipper I almost bought.

The "devil I say"? Yes, really. I showed to a few members back then .. they beat me up purdy good about it .. had i fallen and hit my head, lose my meds, catch mad cow disease, etc

Yeah, she didnt look so good but was 100% complete (nearly -- lotsa unobtainium still on it), it ran but wasnt roadworthy, was UNDER $3K (cheap for a Flxie Clipper, even in this shape), and only 100 miles away from me so i didnt have to transport it.

was converted to RV in the 1970's and used regulary through the 1990s. Sat outside, however, in the NE USA, ALL that time. And hadn't moved since 2001.

the magnificent rear end .. ton of metal patching/straigthening ... none of my guys wanted anything to do with that work.

This was September 2020 though .. in the middle of COVID action ... when I could not get anybody to work on ANYTHING. No even me .. the states I had to visit would NOT allow me in without quarantine first.

Anyway, I did NOT buy it .. not because some guys here beat me up .. but I concluded it was more for parts .. and particularly it meant I needed another one which i also DID NOT own (it would take at two to make ONE good one ... I will do it for C's, but NOT for buses).

anyway, you can read about the 50s Flxies here Bus Stop Classics: Flxible Clipper – The Motor Coach Style Leader of the 1950’s

 

[amazinblue82]

couple more 50s ... some "cabooses" and other examples of vintage pieces

source: Bus Stop Classics: Flxible Clipper – The Motor Coach Style Leader of the 1950’s

 

[MrMoparCHP]

Alan

 

[commando1]

JEEZES, this one gives me a woodie.

 

[amazinblue82]

post #795 ... there was a video too.

Flxible Starliner

 

[LocuMob]

I saw a bus on an old farm property and was rubbernecking to see if the place had any activity. What the hell do I need a bus for? Thanks Ray, it's all your fault!

 

[amazinblue82]

I saw a bus on an old farm property and was rubbernecking to see if the place had any activity. What the hell do I need a bus for? Thanks Ray, it's all your fault!

i'm sick ... and will not take my meds! thats my excuse.

 

[amazinblue82]

JEEZES, this one gives me a woodie.

View attachment 516684

One for the road Stan ... careful passing by any lathes brother. Dont want any industrial accidents

1957 Flxible Starliner. source : Where are the Flxible starliners. Other Starliners are featured in the link as well but this one stood out and excerpted below in a few photos.

The Shimer College bus when it was born in 1957, when a fella bought it in 2005, and then when he finished it sometime later. A job well done I say by someone who loves Flxies he says.

Tada! Man oh man .. thats nice!

 

[commando1]

Sighhhhhhhhhhhh...........

 

[ayilar]

Coincidentally, Curbside Classics reposted this morning a Feb. 2016 article on Flxible Clippers -- lots of eye candy:

Bus Stop Classics: Flxible Clipper - The Motor Coach Style Leader of the 1950's - Curbside Classic

(first posted 2/26/2016) If you were a user of bus transportation in the ‘50s through early ’60s, both city and over-the-road, you no doubt traveled on several different […]

www.curbsideclassic.com

PS: while reading the comments in that article, I found a YouTube video of a '47 Clipper:

 

[amazinblue82]

good look inside the "caboose" of a Flxie clipper in the video.

I dont know the engines well enough to know what's in this '47, but early ones had Buick Straight 8s them. Asserted by Flxie owners to have a very distinctive sound.

Much the way @twostick, @cantflip, and @commando1 counseled me when I was wanting to repower 4501 from that old two-stroke DD to a more modern four-stroke diesel.

I'd lose that "sound" that the two strokes make. I dont know my diesel sounds well enough to describe .. but I know it when I hear it. I remember(ed) how these old PD's sounded with their two-stroke mills.

I made the decision to rebulid the old iron ..

forget being a good emissions citizen or getting much better fuel economy .. gimme that old iron and I'll just get something new, plastic body, electronic controlled powertrain, etc later maybe.

below, neither of these is my bus, but they sound like mine.






,

 

[twostick]

You could repower it with an 8v92, the 8v71's bigger cousin. Same great 2 stroke sound with 500 HP available depending which one you choose.

Kevin

 

[amazinblue82]

You could repower it with an 8v92, the 8v71's bigger cousin. Same great 2 stroke sound with 500 HP available depending which one you choose.

Kevin

Kevin I did get an 8V92 used piece, super and turbo charged.

Its sitting in my warehouse .. my Whisperer AND some folks I met from the PD forums loved the power but all of them had to solve overheating issues.

rebuilding (for the second time) what we believe (hard-part dating) to be the original 8-71 piece from the twin 4-71, dialed up with bigger(?)/stronger(?) injectors and other diesel lingo outside my expertise, we believe will make for good enough power, hill climbing with a trailer, etc..

IF it does not, I guess we do the 8V92 swap. Way back in post #46 Stan had me leaning toward a Cummins N14 "Red Top". The guys that did my 8-71 rebuilding are Cummins guys and were wanting to that swap too.

I finally and still do not intend to go with anything else but one of the Detroits (maybe even a Series 60 [yeah I know its a four stroke]) - I picked up one in a salvage MCI I bought for fitment parts couple years ago) IF the dialed up original iron ain't getting it done.

thanks as always man!

 

[twostick]

An 8v71 with advanced timing and 70 injectors used to be a dependable hotrod tune when I started out many decades ago. I've been told there was a marine spec blower drive gear that spun the blower faster than "normal" but I don't know if that was a fairy tale or not.

Packaging can be an issue when trying to put an inline like an N14 or a S60 where an 8v71 used to live and then there is the cooling issues.

The first thing I would want to be updating would be the 4 speed to something with more speeds and a lower 1st and reverse ratio, maybe a 9 speed RT12509. A 13 speed would be perfect to keep a Detroit cooking with the same 1st and reverse ratios but I'm pretty sure there isn't enough room to fit it.

Kevin

 

[amazinblue82]

Early spring update.

BTW, i have been/am documening that past 2 1/2 years of my ownership. Recall for 20 of those months we didnt meet milestones (my builder's wife passed away due to COVID, lockdowns/quarantining all over the place, etc). I have documentated stuff .. hoping for a big successful reveal of finished product, then the trail of victories/defeats that got me there.

Right now I have to report a setback. In 40 degree weather, we are getting overheating.

We rebuilt/dialed up the original 8-71 DD (rather than go with the 8V92/Allison I bought to repower it), did NOT go with the automatic trans conversion, etc. The rebuilt one likely runs "hotter" than the original spec mill.

We also did NOT replace the ancillary cooling stuff (radiator, fan) but DID "recondition" (remove, power flush/fill, etc) the existing external cooling equipment. The thinking being budgetary but also indications that -- before the rebuild and given we didnt repower it kinda to avoid thermal issues others have gotten when they did that-- it was running OK temp wise.

Now that its moving around on its own, AND getting some yard exercise, she's gone progressively warmer (diagnostic equipment has it over 200 now). We think it will only get hotter, let alone under loads/grades it will routinely see.

What now? I ain't panicking yet ... Obvious stuff first (plus stuff the diesel guys gave up trying to explain to me). Better/newer/different? radiator and auxilliary fans after confirming nothing IN the rebuilt is wettin' the bed on us.

It is NOT something that WONT be addressed .. but I am still trying to keep this whole job under a $$$ number. We'll see.

---

Different but related tangent .. there is an old 1969 MCI MC7 conversion on Ebay now. First I (and my bus Whisperer) like this bus and it really appears to be well done. Second, the asking price approximates my total budget for my PD 4501 conversion.

Somewhere in its conversion journey, it was pre-emptively/reactively modified for much better thermal performance/airflow through the engine comparment. I put vintage stock photos in first to show how the MC-7 looked back in the day.

We estimate several thousand $$ spent .. even cutting louvers (in the new panels) where there would not have been such a thing originally. Our conclusion is it was well done, albeit probably pretty pricey. Nice coach tho.. we think somebody will get good it they picked up this baby.

 

[commando1]

Right now I have to report a setback. In 40 degree weather, we are getting overheating.

It's the thermostat...









Private joke

 

[amazinblue82]

i was gonna say brother ... themostat replaced at rebuild, and replaced again couple weeks back .. didnt "fix" the problem.

This saga started when the old dash gauge (which was NOT replaced .. yet. sum guns are hard to find) was peggin' at 220 (OE gauge only has 3 numbers - 100, 180 right n the middle, and 220), but the guys where not believing it. and then started taking hose/block coolant temps directly.

We were getting 200 .. 205, ...210 .. 215 when we shut it off as the longer it ran the higher it got. So, here we are.

---

Actually 4501 had, in 1955, a rather 'sophisticated" 'thermal management monitoring. by the time 4903 (my Buffalo bus) rolled around a decade later it was much better.

All relative to their era, but NOT by today's standards so that will likely be a upgrade project for me after we lick the fundamental issue(s). I really need a "garage manual" for 4501 like I have for 4903. What I have is not sufficiently detailed for trouble-shooting a Scenicruiser.

---

Radiator is big and thick .. like a six-core job but doesnt have much a shroud ... cost a grand to get a HD truck shop from outta state (some guys I DID NOT know but used because of pandemic) to do their refurb thing on it.

My guys were impressed with their work tho. They (radiator guys) think after 20 years of sitting it gooped up somehow after we started using it. Its outta the bus getting pressure cleaned/flow tested locally. I have NO plan to put a "new" radiator in yet.

Rebuilt the water pump when engine rebuilt -- its getting looked at again tho. Reused the fan "clutch" system, so this may be a target for refurb/replacement now. Past week or so we are yrying to look at CFM through the radiator, leading to auxiliary flow assessment

What we DONT know (and are looking for) is what spec CFM (@ XXXX RPM of the fan) through the radiator was supposed to be 60 years ago (we think it was at least 1,000 CFM-- and I got another outfit coming out to measure (I still haven't plated this bus) what we are getting.

This kinda work is within the skill of my builder, BUT its more of a pain in a** for them to focus on "experiements/trial & error stuff, vs. their bread/butter "guy needs his truck tomorrow" kinda work that keeps their lights on, .. whre specs are clear for these newer rigs, etc)

Last, I also have some guys on the bus forum(a) giving us ideas/things to consider .. after hearing the story, mostly they say "that shouldnt be happening" but "you better get it fixed".

That's it for now.

 

[pomonamissel]

also check radiator flow , if it sat for any time crap hardens up in the core , rust ect... can turn in to a solid mass and block tubes from passing coolant through them .

 

[amazinblue82]

my two new friends ..sorta ruining my weekend.

one: the thermal/fluid dynamics guys. Did their assessment, gotta get back to their office and do their fan curves (plus get flow data from the radiator guy), etc, but initial observation(s) is the "fan looks slow/erratic RPMs" but engine compartment is "pretty open, conducive to decent air flow-though". More to come after rad is back in.

two: radiator shop getting decent air THROUGH the radiator "but on the low side, given its size/depth" and "lower than expected fluid flow" (based on number/diameter of the tubes).

Two secs of background. Recall 4501's originally designed for TWO 4-71 DD's .. that was a disaster, so they all got repowered with a single 8-71 (introduced by GM in 1959) starting in 1961. B oth configurations were "T-drives" with engines longitudinally mounted.

They (Greyhound, GM, and the repower guy Marmon & Herrington) then switched to side-mounted radiator (yeah, radiator was opposite the LH vehicle side cylinder bank of the 8-71, presumably because they HAD to have room package the bigger/heavier 8-71).

The 4-71s had fans on the front of the backward-facing engines, getting air from rads in the back doors (see photos below) of the engine compartment.

So, how did they drive the fan with 8-71's ? Off a belt, but with a shaft, to a "gear box" (see photo below - not mine but a 4501 with 8-71). Over time, the gear box wore out. The radiators (if well maintained), tended to hold up pretty good is what everybody says.

Remedies coming into view: My jaws are getting tight as I write this. Might take a few grand to fix this... within the "contingency" of my original estimate, but still ... I'm only 40% done on this sum-gun.



OEM fan gear boxes/drive mechanisms: are in the "unobtanium" parts bundle. Impossible to find in usable condition, original manufacturer MAY (gotta check this) still provide the "guts" for somebody else to rebuild the gear box. Round numbers? $2K for parts/labor to rebuilt the gear box

OEM Radiator: Dunno -- still working on it. Pressure/chemical clean it again, going "tube by tube" (not sure that's possible/cost effective) looking for obstructions. Decent air flow (they estimated pressure drop) THROUGH core suggests fins are doing ok. Slow/low fluid movement THOUGH the tubes suggests obstructions however. A OEM rad for it impossible to find.

A core replacement from a class 8 truck, OR a custom aluminum core, may be possible/necessary if original piece is still underperforming. Cost? TBD$ but probably $2k for that too

Airflow though the compartment. Since there is NO longer a big, thick condenser on RH side of bus (OE AC system waa gone from when bus was gutted), is essence a big hole in the wall to put some electric fan(s) to try to help moving hot air out of engine compartment (or auxilliary heat exchanger(s)).

Last ... just found on internet. 4501 RV conversion, 8-71 rebuild, but they cut louvers in their back door. Seems like thermal mangrmrnt is a challenge as these coaches age -- some of them at least.

 

[twostick]

Are they trying to tell you the fan speed RPM is erratic and it's the gear box causing that? Highly unlikely. Either the output shaft turns when the input shaft turns, or it doesn't. If it was a fluid coupling perhaps but that's not the case. If the gears aren't worn past their service limit, bearings and seals should return the box to good as new but if it's not howling at you or leaking, no need to disturb it.

If the fan speed is actually changing independent of engine speed, that could be worn belts or pulleys causing slippage, but that would be more apt to appear at speed, not just idling around the yard. This is assuming there is no clutch on the fan itself to disengage it.

The only other Easy Button stuff I can think of is the thermostat. I would pull that assembly apart and check to see that it is functioning correctly. They slide in a seal and could perhaps be seized/stuck even if new.

A couple of other things come to mind.

Did you do a combustion gas test on it? A cracked head or head gasket can cause an internal disruption of coolant flow and cause heating issues. Most shops have a test kit for this. The unit has to be running but it only takes a few minutes to conduct the test.



Water pump impeller broke/corroded. I think you said they assessed flow, but did they measure it with the engine pumping coolant or an external source?

I have had class 8 truck rads that flowed well within spec that wouldn't cool because the tubes had a rust/mineral buildup in them that literally insulates the copper from the coolant. I also learned that fixing that is a crapshoot at best. It either doesn't cool any better when your done or it leaks... lol. If you're supplying the labor it's worth a shot, maybe, but paying for labor, just recore the rad if none of the Easy Button stuff works.

Kevin